How much power should i be making once meth injected??

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

hmmm thats what i didnt want to hear

its easily $1000 outlay for a meth system then add installation and tuning and it could be upto $1500-$2000? for that money i can get a lot more than 10% increase in power.

thats the main thing im trying to find out if its a viable option..

the options are for me to get a bigger wastegate to run slightly more boost as with my 38mm tial im limited to 23-24psi as it wont hold 27ish psi as it hits boost cut cause it cant get rid of excess boost quick enough.

other options are c16 and nos, c16 is cheap outlay but costs a lot to keep running, and nos im just not sure about but i do have a brand new kit sitting here screaming to be put in.

last option was meth injection but with only 10% gain to be had it isnt really worth it...

The outlay is worth it 100% IF you are able to increase your boost pressure

This is the thing you need to get out of this discussion, most of your gains in turbo cars are from boost pressure increase and relatively little come from optimization of the fueling and timing..... especially compared to the boost increase.

Water/Methanol injection requires CDI ignition upgrade and any other parts that will allow you to jack up the boost.

Once you invest in the right gear unlike C16 your not paying for it each time you fill up, and its legal too + it is kinder on your engine (lots written about this).

In your case you need to invest in the ancillaries that will allow the boost increase, then the Water/methanol injection will simply be the lowest stress way on your engine to take care of the fueling side.

You are correct though that it wont magically give you the double digit percentage gains in power alone, its not how it works sadly.

[The Godfather]

yeah thats how we roll here in aus lol...

well with my current 38mm gate im limited to either 24psi or 35psi++ lol as it wont hold inbetween it just wants to climb especially with my 1.06rear on the 35R!

so you think my LS1 coils wont be up to the task of running water/meth?

well back to searching for a bigger wastegate looks like.. :@ i was hoping there would be another option.

also what water/meth kit should i be looking at for my setup?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

yeah thats how we roll here in aus lol...

well with my current 38mm gate im limited to either 24psi or 35psi++ lol as it wont hold inbetween it just wants to climb especially with my 1.06rear on the 35R!

so you think my LS1 coils wont be up to the task of running water/meth?

well back to searching for a bigger wastegate looks like.. :@ i was hoping there would be another option.

also what water/meth kit should i be looking at for my setup?

http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/maxpower.pdf

^ Have a read of this mate, its most relevant to you

So far as kits Richard makes the best, send him an E-Mail or PM I'm sure he can guide you on that subject.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/maxpower.pdf

^ Have a read of this mate, its most relevant to you

So far as kits Richard makes the best, send him an E-Mail or PM I'm sure he can guide you on that subject.

interesting read and car was very similar to mine all that was gained was 37hp so yeah not a viable source of power.. looks like i will just run some c16 as the gains from c16 are had at same psi and rpm as my 270kw and should see significant gains. with zero outlay costs.

i will eventually look back to water/meth injection but cooling intake temps could also be done with a dry ice box or cryo kit etc...

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

interesting read and car was very similar to mine all that was gained was 37hp so yeah not a viable source of power.. looks like i will just run some c16 as the gains from c16 are had at same psi and rpm as my 270kw and should see significant gains. with zero outlay costs.

i will eventually look back to water/meth injection but cooling intake temps could also be done with a dry ice box or cryo kit etc...

I think you have missed the point with this.?

W/M gives massive gains and its running costs are 1/10th of needing to buy C16 + its much kinder on your engine (that's been proven showing lower peak cylinder pressures along with increased BMEP = less stress for more power) .

The only missing element you need to take care of is your ignition system capacity *you will read that in the article I gave you*

So far as power production goes nothing will ever match W/M, durability wise its way out in front, cost wise after initial outlay its a no brainer...... and legality well, its the only thing you can run period and still enjoy your "road car".

if you want a simple one off hit of increased output, then you buy "power in a can" (C16) that is the most cost effective for a once off hit, long term its crap though, just as methanol is crap too or any substitute for petrol as your base fuel. W/M injection is the ideal, its in no way the easiest and lots of people misunderstand it or what its about and what you can do with it. But make no mistake nothing will make more power than that will while reducing stress on your engine at the same time.

[RICE RACING]

To give you an idea of why we love it so much.

I have a customer who runs a RX3 drag car with small 28"x9" rear slick and he uses C16 gasoline main fuel along with my pre turbo water/methanol injection system, this runs 37psi and does 8.3 seconds @ 162mph...... but the best part of it all is that the engine lasts, and has done 4 times more work than it ever has before with nil compression loss. He will never run another drag car without it for the increased durability alone to use his words & its simplicity and low maintenance V's running a pure methanol fueled car.

Engines are far less stressed when they are water injected, increased power is only but one part of why we are big fans of it.

[The Godfather]

but thats the thing, the water/meth doesnt give the hp increases, it does prolong engine life and reduced intake temps and alot of other good stuff, i understand the less stressed thing but my motor on 400kw on c16 wont be stressed at all as its built to handle it, if you get me.

Im after a power increase, at least 100kw and water/meth injection alone cant give that to me.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

but thats the thing, the water/meth doesnt give the hp increases, it does prolong engine life and reduced intake temps and alot of other good stuff, i understand the less stressed thing but my motor on 400kw on c16 wont be stressed at all as its built to handle it, if you get me.

Im after a power increase, at least 100kw and water/meth injection alone cant give that to me.

By the same logic C16 or methanol wont give you the increase either then

ALL of these things require more boost pressure and to a lesser extent more fine tuning of the engine.

I get what you are trying to say but the stress and how energy is released is very important, internally nothing reduces more combustion stresses than by the addition of water (heat and peak pressure), you need to do some research on it (plenty on this web site). Remember real engineers worked all of this out ~100 years ago, and car people are thinking they have invented thermodynamics it was all figured out long long ago & its rules have been established long before that... The temperature reduction of the inlet charge is a minimal effect or component in the types of vehicles we apply water injection on compared to what it does in the combustion chamber.

Still everyone needs to pick what is right for them and if your motor can handle it and you want a one off hit then "power in a can" is the best option.

[Richard L]

Godfather,

I think you are missing the point of the action of water/methanol injection va power vs C16. Listen and learn for riceracing.

Three major items are needed to make aditional power:
1. More oxygen (+fuel) ....... bigger turbo and nitrous. Nitromethane give you both.
2. Knock free ....... the biggest enemy to power. Water or C16 can help
3. Combustion temperature ...... alumimium piston melts at 550C. Without incylinder cooling by water, your power production is limited.

[RICE RACING]

I cant stress enough for all of the years and multiple cars I have been exposed too that there is no one answer that fits everyone, each system needs fine tuning and in some cases it can make or break the combo and peoples opinions about what is "crap" and what is good. WI generally gets a bad wrap from many "specialists" who honestly have no idea let alone qualifications.

This RX3 has been a classic case in point, many meetings and phone calls over months and finally the sweet spot is reached, its involves usually people doign things they are not sure of or even recommending as it takes a long time and many sample cases of cars to establish what does work in many environments be they dyno or the track

RX3, 28x9 tired, 13B powered.
C16 fuel
WI running 50/50 mix (cant tell you exact ratio)
37psi boost
= 730rwhp on a dynojet
8.32 seconds @ 162.37mph
engine been running for 8 meetings and over 30 dyno runs, still perfect. And making enough grunt now to break the gearbox

Based off this real world proof, shipped out another WI kit today to a local competitor who learned of this

Moral is you really need to thoroughly test and research and develop your system and then be prepared to do some more, it is all too easy especially today in the realm of the interweb and one off articles to come to your own conclusion about what is right and what is wrong...... you don't need to believe me or Richard, just look at what was done in the ultimate reciprocating engines during the war. The stuff there puts what most of us do today to shame by a factor of 10.