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Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
And it just gets faster! 12 back to back runs, can only be done with the power of water injection!
100kph to 200kph in 5.658 seconds! https://i.imgur.com/9b5WUkU.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vbHDDFH.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PEvKRyk.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/M...O9_Charles.htm
^ Another water injected road rocket, withstanding more molestation than the Fritzl family ! |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Down to ~5.5 second range 100kph to 200kph, but with around 820bhp traction even with 4WD is not always optimal.
Still using H pattern syncro gearbox with no flat shifting activated at all, so its a genuine real street car here, not some quasi wannabe race car pretending to be road going ;) over 18 minutes on load = 120 nine second 1/4 mile runs, engine durability on WM50 is something that pure performance numbers alone don't do justice. If you want FAST, RELIABLE, and DURABLE! you can have all three at once with the power of water injection only ;) no excuses! |
E85 is a kunt of a fuel !
Are you tired of the E85 head fuck and total maintenance nightmare that is Ethanol life???? I look after allot of cars and a few that insist on running this garbage I can share with you all is a text book maintenance nightmare.
Compared to running petrol fuel and water injection its a distant second in every category. Corrosion causing material stripping inconsistent garbage of an excuse of a fuel E85 is! By stark comparison every single water injected car runs and has no excuses unlike the ethanol shit boxes seem to offer up on all too frequent a basis. I always had a preference to not use the garbage myself but after seeing so many over years first hand I can say you would have to be fucking totally mental to use this crap over petrol and water injection ;) |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Having campaigned mechanical injected methanol motors for years.I have to agree with you if e85 is any thing like or even close to methanol it is a job in it self to keep things flowing like they are intended . After every event flushing the system to keep it from eating aluminum fittings and distribution blocks and plugging up injector nozzles & pills <jets> .Thank you for reminding me how much work that was . I have been on the fence about a water meth system or e 85 for a while i have 90% of the components for a W/M set up from aquamist but am having a hard time shaking the fear of a system failure or fail safe not catching an issue in time , E85 on the other hand having to add 30% to everything fuel related would require , 100lb plus injectors<at 80lb now> ,fuel pump, fuel lines , issues with idle quality and low speed tunning lol i am sure there would be other issues as well all this in a 9.7.1 turbo 2860 cc 4 banger that runs the streets .
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Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
^ wise words ;)
If you want to shake your fear, read back a few pages, you will see the path I went along. There is only one way to do this right. Get a Life Racing or Syvecs ECU and get someone who has spent decades proving this to be the best, no the ONLY WAY! for a road car ;) I have fully developed packages, turn key, no guess work, no arsebook promises, no fake reviews or thumbs up bullshit, just real world proven fastest road cars, any platform. If its internal combustion and you want to drive it anywhere, anytime, continue to drive it without detonating OR needing to carry fuel drums Mad Max style (or spare engines !) then the final solution is there already done for you. Anyone is welcome to get in touch, go to my site, send an email. Aquamist + LR + RR = donmega nothing more to say. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
We have a few more exciting projects nearing completion.
Conversion of one in particular to a proper top grade motorsports ECU (Life Racing), highly stressed 4cyl 2lt engine making > 960whp. This one featuring 'old faithful' RRWEP140 WM50 injection system. And then a few others ;) think latest technology same architecture to what as finished 3rd outright at LeMans on the weekend, cutting edge of Internal Combustion Engine development and not an electric dildo motor in sight. :) |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
http://www.syvecs.co.uk/forum/viewto...4c5631fa#p6622
*** FROM ABOVE, you want to make sure if you are going to do this properly that you run calibrated sensors specifically to know exactly how much excess fuel you are running into the engine, as it is critical for knock and turbine inlet temperature control *** Did a little video showing the process for those who want to try and do this themselves? It is not that hard but you do need a set up and the time, as described previously its not just done in one test, takes this repeated 3 times or more depending on how it comes up.... I generally aim for better than 0.5% accuracy across the whole calibration curve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvArF4Y ... e=youtu.be You really do need to do this, especially if you are running at the richer end of the scale for a port injected engine (turbocharged), depending on your 'luck' you could have a real turd of a NTK LZA which will be up to 5+ percent incorrect (either way + -) and you just dont know till you check it. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Here is one VW GOLF VR6 engine car that has been turbocharged, stock OEM engine is knock limited, so next step will be to open up the turbine to lift the specific power back up and will put it on WM50 port set up....
Some may find the ECU details and some calibration tools of interest. It is important to have this so you know what is happening and how to progress. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIkaC4Ind7k I have other things if time allows to put up on some other ECU and water injection integration examples from real world cars, unlike others these actually still run :) I'm too busy, but will try my best :) |
Aquamist + Syvecs Integration
I'm forever getting asked (phone, email, internetz) about why I choose to only use the best parts, its simply to do with making the power plant reliable and durable, not cause I get paid to say so with free/subsidized product/s :)
The best way to show the general public this is with an example off a real car, I keep saying unlike the YouGag bloggers, Forum vendors etc, IE = shit talkers (with pay to play endorsements), these cars actually work and still run :) What is important is the integration part, this means that any system on the vehicles engine needs to be properly developed to counter any and all eventualities. This applies to any sub component on the engine that is needed to make it run, be that a fuel injector, ignition coil, lambda sensor....... think of any input (sensor) and output (actuator) in general speak. The water injection system has to be treated the same way, to not do that is a mistake which I can say to you from personal experience is how it is. In the simplest forms strategies to properly control ANY engine can range from levels of action to a fault (system out of range or not operating) the logic is proprietary and wont be shown 100% (sorry stalkers! fuck you!) but even the arse clowns can take some notes here ! Turbo Charged: * Reduced boost level * More excess fuel * Ignition timing adjustment (Knock/Detonation control) Think of this as a multi layered approach with the ultimate sub set of Knock/Detonation control being the final *always active* defense to the engine, and this is where not all engine controllers (let alone programmers!) are created equal. For WM50 application you want active control on an individual engine cycle level @ say 9000rpm, this requires a quality system ! if anything is out then your engine will continue to live, no excuses. Below you can see the input to the ECU provided by the Aquamist and then the action taken by the control unit to manage the engine. NOTE: you can do this on a whole engine approach or if its a multi cylinder deal (most are!) then depending on instrumentation/inputs obviously on a per combustion chamber basis, most of mine are that way but its a case by case deal. The final arbitrator is DETONATION and even on the most basic application using Syvecs/LR this is controlled perfectly which avoids an over enthusiastic calibration setting combustion event based failure. This is a high percentage (I would say easily the highest by some order) cause of needing to get out motor, and why lots of idiots put in a boat anchor rather than sticking with the superior low mass high power density turbocharged power plant. https://i.imgur.com/bw2dzGH.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wZXJWh1.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PFVT5fW.jpg Keep in mind, we have never ever lost an engine running a Syvecs/Life Racing ECU, never! why? probably 1/4+ century of water injection knowledge and its reliable implementation using the best parts. Ironically there is always some parrot screaming out, "but what if it stops working!" well cuntox the facts are I see more daily issues with main fuel system fuck ups 100 fold than I ever do with even an archaic WI system, and that is a fact most don't care to acknowledge. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
One of the other things not spoken about here is the efficiency of the charge cooler, I have done lots of experiments and real world tests of this with.
A to A W to A chemical inter cooling One of the big benefits of the WM50 system is you can use it to greatly increase the eff of the charge cooler, with none of the negatives of running a W to A, or No2 etc. Nothing new though, it was used to great effect until it was banned in F1 after 1986 season (see below). https://i.imgur.com/trUP39A.jpg When I get some time I will put up the actual figures of conventional systems v's superior WI spray enhanced set up's :) Keep in mind this augments the internal injection of WM50, you end up with exceptional density gains with none of the associated negatives of the main stream solutions used by those who are not so smart ;) |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
When water injecting only use the best ignition systems, if you are trying inferior inductive based crap then lord have mercy on your stupidity :)
https://i.imgur.com/McoInFX.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/NzP2XQw.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2QFCcbb.jpg |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y_v7ncEKuk
Taking EGT probes and making them the best they can be, put these up against anything anyone else makes and will run rings around them! Some tricks to using these properly too, take a look at the real knowledge linked above and on channel ;) https://i.imgur.com/dAQPX7s.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
In my latest series of valued resources I put this up, well worth watching for anyone who wants to learn quality qualified information v's the plethora of Arsebook online shit out there ~!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgm...ature=youtu.be EGT, TIT, fuel mixtures, how engines work, fundamentals of internal combustion....... if you want to know don't miss this or skip through it :) |
WARNING on shit quality ECU's
PLEASE
PLEASE PLEASE!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEusfXCHoHI ^ DO NOT run garbage like this! Every farking week I get asked, 'oh but my tuna tells me to use this and its all he uses' my response is find someone who is competent! Don't sell yourself short and limit yourself cause your monkey cant learn anything, only train himself to use sub standard rubbish. Especially on a water injected car!!!! There is no end of arse clowns out there especially these days, people with a pay to play 1 week certification and a few shitbox cars to their name, then pretending to be the latest and greatest expert on everything...... don't fall for it please :( seen this too many times. It's quite sad to know that there are great ECU's out there but they get drowned out by the marketing departments and propaganda machine that would make Adolf Hitler very proud!!! stay away from the shit please, go to a water injection specialist and use the computer and parts to complete the set up as they dictate, it will work and will have zero excuses, and you wont get thrown under a bus years later when they walk away from their ECU affiliate as LINK'd above pictures in the vid description. Remember shit in = shit out. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Hello Peter,
What kind of water/fuel rate you usually run? I run your old style pre turbo setup on a 13B w EFR83 and RON98. It flows with the metering screw fully out 272cc at 1 bar, 370cc at 1.5 bar and 420cc/min at 2 bar. At 3250 rpm 1 bar boost this nets me around 50-60% of water to fuel rate (mass based) running lambda 0.8. The car has IGN-1A coils and a bit surprisingly lights this just fine. Logically at 6500 rpm running double the air and thus fuel the water rate drops to 25% approx. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Hello Mate, That above is about what they do as you describe it. The rates I use depends on allot of variables some but not limited to the knock threshold of the main fuel supply, how much charge cooling, what can be tolerated via the ignition system to mention a few. What you can establish a flame front on is proportional to the excess fuel ratio and how much is inside the chamber, along with the compression ratio of the engine type it is being applied to. A rotary engine in a road application verified by my many engine dyno tests with the sort of set up you are running will give around 80bhp to 90 bhp per liter per bar of absolute pressure when all of the parameters are within range, if you run more spark lead timing it can be easier to get it all started. Typically when you are running an engine (13B) at 700bhp range and its on BP Optimax + WM50 and its set up in 'endurance' form then its got to be run with much excess fuel and when the charge filling is at its peak and associated acceptable spark lead setting, this is when you will find the merits of a full CDI set up over inductive. If the engine is less stressed or any of the running parameters are set optimistically, say more spark timing and less excess fuel and less overall power density, then you can get away with running different ignition systems. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Offcourse as you say depending on the knock tolerance of the fuel the spark efficiency will generally get lower the higher the chamber chrarge and charge temp. I will post here how it turns out. At work we ran 1 cyl DI development engine with a pre chamber, 10:1 CR, port water inj at 7000 rpm 32 bar bmep with lambda 1 and optimal spark (50% burn around 8 deg atdc). water rate 50 to 55% of fuel mass. this is could be considered state of the art but if the water stops piston is gone before you can count to 10. ;) I assume on this evo you could run similar water rate but perhaps are still a bit more knock limited. the burn duration of the pre chamber combustion process is very short, giving the mixture less time to knock. Do you have cylinder pressure indication system? I would be interested what kind of spark efficiency can be reached on a port fueled engine running these loads and pump fuel. |
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NA engines always runs worse map/tip which effects the power output in a negative manner, and without knowing what level of street port as well means that your figure could be in the mean average of what to expect? Video here to watch > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlbcnjc53mE https://i.imgur.com/EfTjRtI.jpg Maybe easier to email me mate? |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
On the EVO the car is turbo charger limited.
As far as I can remember even with the RRWEP based old school WI kits regardless of turbocharger its always been the case that you end up turbo limited. In modern context say in Borg Warner in EFR range, the largest one they make despite running any engine type and specification the critical speed of them is the thing that limits the power is what I have found personally. In the Life Racing/Syvecs ECU the below is always a control element that is active. https://i.imgur.com/KsY2FJH.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Stock https://i.imgur.com/J2LRQFK.jpg Street ported with basic mods https://i.imgur.com/SUHy4c7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/I81C5M2.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Again another great use of water injection. Its not known cause I don't share everything, but ~20 years ago I ran 350+rwkw on a 13B turbo at 1 lambda with pre turbo injection, this was by accident actually, but was the first time I had viewed it, the dyno operator could not believe! it and thought his probe was wrong? as there was no way in hell a turbo rotary on pump petrol could do such a thing and live. In the end we did 5 consecutive runs all between 349rwkw and 357rwkw all at 1.000 Lambda or thereabouts ! |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Lam 1 is future with eu7. Its either water injection (port or DI or emulsion) or cut power. These integrated exh manifolds help a bit to stay longer stoichiometric but yes the water opens a whole new level of keeping efficiency even at bmep > 30 bar.
Ill send an email about a other car I am building. I assumed when you said per liter you meant 360* equivalent, with 2.6l or 270* of offcourse makes alot more sense. In this car I have 2 decent egt probes but the issue here is that im using a australian ecu that relies on an innovate tc4 which is the greatest crap after dog poo really... 20* error where it counts on channel 2. Channel 1 is pretty close. Channel 3-4 are completely off.. For the efr they have now there ‘black series’ which is actually just a bigger trim compressor wheel on the same turbine. If you can stay away from surge it will bring more top end. What you also can do is look in the SXE range. They have a different (better) geometry of comp housing. It drops on the ‘classic’ efr range. It helps both surge and choke zone. Look at the efr76 and sxe map. Same wheel. Using the sxe housing on an efr76 which I made into a s300v vgt housing it made a day and night difference. I spoke with BW and since this year they offer the sxe housing option in their catalog. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Hard to believe they can make something so simple so bad and even ask money for it.. Thesedays l rely on frequency input if the ecu has or of not all it takes is a lm2917 and a good resistor and capacitor. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
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Thanks for posting the clip of your Omega Engineering meter, I bought one of them today to have a secondary item to my main one. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Tested a fine wire K type probe and also fed through the Syvecs KT8, will have the omega engineering and eti instruments soon to do more validations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXbO9O8_P0k&t=77s ^ check it out https://i.imgur.com/dNLC1IP.jpg?1 |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
I reckon the black probe is the open element one? the others are colder because the insulation jackets transfers some heat down? What probe would you recommend peter? At the moment I use the 3mm ones from RS with the inconel 600 outer sheet, PN 824-0675
They aren't fast but last multiple race seasons in our rx-3 PP. the ones with stainless outer sheet usually failed in 1 or 2 races. we run max 950 egt but run the engine mostly between 7 and 9k rpm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CExNDVC1WI in this movie if you put quality to 1080p you can get an idea of the response time |
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Yes the heat transfer is the issue. My probes are Inconel 600 as you know these are the only things that last, SS is cheap and nasty not suitable for anything but maybe 2 stroke bikes etc. If you want some or more detail etc shoot me an email peter@riceracing.com.au I took my latest video for a bloke on here who wants to use these for turbo compressor exit temperature, they are very fast. Will take a look at your video now ;) |
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You will see when you fit a pair of mine that it will more than likely read 100+ deg C higher than this below, and not constantly creep up all the way down the straight :) https://i.imgur.com/5R9Mw7e.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Ruben, here is a 3mm closed probe v's an open one (for EGT application) super extended but they dont last in real world (3000km in road car).
Anyway you can see the 3mm closed version suffers from never reaching temp and delays, not to mention being very long way from reporting something near accurate end figure. This is all legacy info from decade ago put over onto the LR software to see in a nicer format. https://i.imgur.com/RDYjP8q.jpg https://i.imgur.com/w3z9UtH.jpg https://i.imgur.com/N6VyPPq.jpg What I have made is a probe that exceeds the fine wire super extended tip, but in a fully enclosed Inconel 600 form and many factors higher response rate, and better accuracy. |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
In the below video these are my previous suppliers own type of probes, open element but in a stupid 1/4" size, they respond ok & are tolerable for some kind of indication of temperature.
My own design is 5 times faster than these and read ~100deg C higher at peak temperature, so far more accurate. This is super important for TIT cause I know I have lost count how many times have pulled apart a turbo to see the blades in distress, when in reality the poor cunts have been seeing temps that are maybe 200 or 300 degrees higher than what is reported via sub standard understanding of how an EGT Thermocouple works, IE: as a friend of mine said rightly it reads the temp of the probe and not so much the thing its measuring !@ Video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl8i...ature=youtu.be https://i.imgur.com/JRiL5aX.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Got a heap of them in stock as of today, but almost all sold !
https://i.imgur.com/AIO0xbz.jpg?1 |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
How much shipped?
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Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
Some more 'fact v fiction' here > http://www.syvecs.com/forum/viewtopi...5&p=6712#p6712 others talk about 'testing', when we get asked it gets done within minutes ;) enjoy :)
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Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
I get asked for picture of the probe and details so as below:
* Inconel 600 * Motorsport 'high heat' tolerance potted strain relief (these wont break/fail at the junction where the wires are joined - unlike some) * As per video's they are accurate as can be while being durable and also allowing multi function use (any vehicle air/fluid measure) https://i.imgur.com/s9ALgEq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/NrJ794V.jpg |
Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dnmzf1lD9A
^ latest video using a calibrate meter :) More details here > http://www.syvecs.com/forum/viewtopi...5&p=6722#p6722 |
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