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-   Your one-stop search for water/methanol injected cars (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
-   -   Astra Coupe Turbo 273bhp, but 25bhp less power with WI. (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=908)

JohnA 16-02-2006 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K3FUS
...Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!
All of my experiments have shown that one shouldn't expect power gains with W.I. if fuelling isn't trimmed accordingly.
Otherwise you might get an extra thick protection margin against detonation, but that's it. Usually at the expense of power. That's what most people do, and that's what most 'tuners' do, so they give W.I. a bad name (useless, expensive, band-aid, etc)

They are still stuck in books from the seventies and eighties, or practices from days gone by.

I have seen significant power gains with water/methanol injection both in the summer and the winter so it can be done.
The concept works.

ashtal 16-02-2006 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWarner
RIchard, what was the name of that diagnostic bit of kit you suggested, I've forgotten.
Here is the link:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

Richard
Watched one of the vid's from that site ! Most of what they say go's strait over my head. But i do kind of understand how the wide band is better than the normal lambda. Would this wideband lambda work with the astra's ecu ?

Is the MAF converter not going to be the way forward with WI on the astra ?

JohnA 16-02-2006 06:46 PM
On the C20LET I had the ECU accepting the output from the AEM wideband.
Apart from it's own display of the wideband, it also had an output that could be set up to emulate the stock narrowband sensor. So the ECU was very happy. In fact it ran better than with the stock sensor, because the wideband moves quicker.

Richard L 16-02-2006 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtal
Watched one of the vid's from that site ! Most of what they say go's strait over my head. But i do kind of understand how the wide band is better than the normal lambda. Would this wideband lambda work with the astra's ecu ?

Is the MAF converter not going to be the way forward with WI on the astra ?
I watched the video several times before I absorbed everything properly - it was an excellent message for producing fuel efficient power. I was also very glad that they have mentioned WI as a replacement for fuel dumping.

I could not continue on the dyno with Mike's car as the air fuel ratio along the plot was a bit irregular. But I think Mike is tempted to getting the Innovate lambda gauge, I will then be a bit more comportable with what the a/f ratio is during the next tune. I still think the MAF converter is the way forward rather getting a full blow piggyback ECU, cost wise.

This is one thing which is very clear - trimming the MAF signal is a very simple way of leaning the air fuel ratio. I will contact Mike to find out if he want to continue.

Richard L 16-02-2006 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K3FUS
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!
Could you tell me how it failed? If you cab take a picture, it wil be much better.

K3FUS 16-02-2006 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Quote:
Originally Posted by K3FUS
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!


Could you tell me how it failed? If you cab take a picture, it wil be much better.
How what failed?

MikeWarner 16-02-2006 09:32 PM
Richard - after looking at the innovatve products I look for alternatives and found this:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

It is the Zeitronix Zt-2 and seems to be a brilliant bit of kit and much cheaper too. What do you think of it? The user input can log any 0-5v signal so I was thinking about getting one of these to log knock:
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/KNOCK_BLOCK_-LNK_KNKB.asp

I want to continue playing with the module. I fitted a new AFM today but it didn't feel like I got the power back. I logged the lambda (although only narrow band) and it stayed below 0.8, not sure how accurate it is. The second lambda sensor seemed to give fluctuating results (yes, there are two on this engine). I'll speak to Courtenays about this tomorrow. It may be that one of my lambda probes has gone funny.

I'll get the car running 100% before we have another go with it.

Richard L 16-02-2006 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWarner
Richard - after looking at the innovatve products I look for alternatives and found this:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

It is the Zeitronix Zt-2 and seems to be a brilliant bit of kit and much cheaper too. What do you think of it? The user input can log any 0-5v signal so I was thinking about getting one of these to log knock:
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/KNOCK_BLOCK_-LNK_KNKB.asp

I want to continue playing with the module. I fitted a new AFM today but it didn't feel like I got the power back. I logged the lambda (although only narrow band) and it stayed below 0.8, not sure how accurate it is. The second lambda sensor seemed to give fluctuating results (yes, there are two on this engine). I'll speak to Courtenays about this tomorrow. It may be that one of my lambda probes has gone funny.

I'll get the car running 100% before we have another go with it.
I think both item is good value for money. Will be interesting to to know the total after adding the options. The LCD display and EGT probe is a must. Boost sensor is not need in your case as you have a map sensor already, you can log it on the user 0-5V.

72 samples per second per graph divided by 7 channels means 10 samples per second per input. It would ne nice if you have a few spare inputs.

I know very little about knock sensors - the nice ones uses DSP chip to analyise the knock and the not so good ones just have a tunable notch filter. I welcome you getting some useful tools to help tuning your car. It is too dangerous to to tune without them or rollong road hours can mount up very quickly.

Let me know when thing are back to normal again. If you have the wideband, you can check you MAF sensor daily.

MikeWarner 16-02-2006 10:19 PM
Richard - I am currently watching the videos on the inovative site. Err.... that thing is amazing!!! I think I.m changing my mind back towards this setup..... (3 more videos to watch!)

Richard L 17-02-2006 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWarner
Richard - I am currently watching the videos on the inovative site. Err.... that thing is amazing!!! I think I.m changing my mind back towards this setup..... (3 more videos to watch!)
The gauge concept the this gauge is amazing - 16 million colours - function of the gauge can be changed in a matter of minutes.


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