Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

You will be injecting approximately 3000cc/min of fuel. Assuming you are running M50/W50:

1) Without nitrous:
3000cc/min x 20% = 600cc/min.

2. With nitrous:
3000cc/min at 30% = 900cc/min.

I suggest running 2x 1mm nozzles. Use one of fuel rail pressure compensation input to tell the HFS-4 to rasie the injection rate from 600-900cc/min, approximately 50% extra.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Dave,
I suggest running a 1mm nozzle before the SC, allowing some cooling on the S/C running gear, it will help to increase the reduce the hot S/C heating up the incoming air. The consumption may be higher but it is only water.

Tank wise, Jeff is more equipped with this department. All USA GB will be shipped from N.cal, so please contact Jeff for a indepth discussion.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Why does this kit not come with an accumulator? not needed?

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Since we changed the shurflo pump to a aquatec pump and insisted the pump be mounted in the trunk, it appears the system has enough accumulated pressurise fluid along the 20 feet of 6mm nylon line as well as to nulling out the pressure spikes. The accumulator is still availabe as a separate part.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Im extremely interested in the group buy but have a few quick questions. My car is a 91 Honda Accord F22A6 SOHC. Honda P28 OBD1 ECU with Hondata S300. Currently have a stock block/head with ARP headstuds running 10psi on t3/t4 turbo (~250whp). Im also rebuilding my other motor which was fully built and ran 20psi on 94 octane. My goal is to push the stock motor as far as i can with water/meth, hoping i can get 16-17psi out of it for a bit anyways. Once im done rebuilding my motor, id like to get 23-24 psi (~430whp) on 94 octane + meth.

Now do i need the HFS-4 system? It seems more geared towards newer cars, i can pickup a used aquamist for around $500, which isnt that far off from the GB price really, and id be getting all new parts.

Also i dont see many honda tuners using water/meth but my local tuner recommends it, will this system work for my car no problems? And can you make a wiring diagram for my car once i put down a deposit.

Thanks a lot!

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

The honda cars do not come complete wityh turbo or supercharger from factory. N.A engine rarely needs water injection unless it has a very high static compression ratio.

It is not easy for me to make a diagram until I have a ecu pin out diagram. You can use the generic wiring diagram of the HFS-4. It will take you 5 miniutes to locate the fuel inject wires. It will take me hours to draw a diagram for you particular set up.

You are propbably the first person I heard with a turbo Honda - but I rarely visit the honda "force induced" forums.

The HFS-4 has the advantage of balancing flow based on the idc/boost ratio, compared to the HFS-3.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Richard,

Since I plan on using the hfs-4 mainly as supplementing the maxed out rs4 injectors in my a4 fsi, what is the max size nozzle I can run to get the most out of the system. I read the pump is capable of flowing 1600cc, so would 4 nozzles running 400cc each be the best? Or should I add a 5th nozzle after the intercooler for cooling purposes as well? I want to optimize the system for fuel delivery to increase power as opposed for cooling purposes how should I go about this? Does this affect the water/meth ratio I should run? I tried searching but not much info on direct port, Thank you.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

The system is capable of sprayiong ~1300cc/min with the standard valve (806-239B). We can supply a 806-239 valve for ~1600cc/min. It appears you need to run 4x 0.8mm jets + a little bit of head room for the 5th injector. Not a problem.

If ypu run twin valve, the system is capable of 2500cc/min. Requires larger hose ID between the tank and pump. 10mm ID will do nicely.

Here is a chart for the jet vs flow:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS4/jetrate+M.gif

R53
 

I have a R53 Mini, with BVH Head / pistons etc, waiting to be fitted.
What are the benifits, if any for my car to go the direct port WM injection route ?

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

It will depend on your goal, charge air cooloing or extra fueling (octane supplement).

What power are you aiming? The R53 is supercharged, are you running a smaller pulley or a third party super/turbo charger with your new build?

R53
 

With the new head/cam, I am hoping/expecting, about 300 bhp. About the limit of the
M 45 supercharger. Its currently 218whp/183 wtq.
I have a 17% reduced charger pulley. The next step will be larger supercharger or turbo.
Would like to be 350 bhp + I believe in the "Do it once", school of thought.
I want the system to be able to complement my future upgrades.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

On estep at a time, you enjoy it more, The HFS-4 should serve you well into the next few stages. Mini does not like water as much as 100% methanol. Again, you will probably prove me wrong.

Jeff howereton is the person that will give you the best advice. He will provide your with a comprehensive installation instruction for sure.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hi Richard I just joined in for the GB. I will be installing this on my 2009 N54 BMW 335. It is a standard and currently full bolt ons running either the JB4 or Cobb (I switch on different days trying to pick one). I'm looking forward to seeing what this kit can do with these tunes. Just to make sure, is the failsafe included, or do I depend on my tune for that? Thanks.

edit: I wanted to add that my chargepipe has two meth bungs, does this have all the nozzles I need? And what size would you recommend running? I've heard either dual CM10's for an example, or one CM7 and one CM10. Thanks again

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

The HFS-4 is well equipped with failsafe output for all the popular tuners on the N54 platforum:

JB4: ......... voltage based flow signal
Procede: ........... voltage based (PPS) and pulsed based (PWM)
Cobb/other flash tuner: ............. Boost cut for the time being. A map switch output if and when they come out with a MAP switch option.

The System come with two meth bungs (1/8 NPT), hust drill, tap and loctitle onto your current charge pipe). As you are US based. Jeff will look after you with the correct jets before despatch. (2x1mm + 1 spare of your choice). For this platforum, we recommend 2x 1mm jet, spraying approximately 800cc+/min of water/methanol mix.

Which part of US are you located and how did you hear of this GB?

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Thank you Richard. I am in New York, USA. I heard about the GB by looking for an HFS-3 system and saw that HFS-4 had finally come out.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Richard,

I am still working out the tank details with Jeff and I may end up getting a Twin Tank System, but I am curious about my usage as want to make sure I have a big enough tank but not too big.

If I run that 1mm nozzle considering normal daily driving how much Water/Meth will I get through in say 350 miles which is about my normal duration on a tank of gas, about 11 to 12 gallons worth of gasoline.

Can you give me a rough estimate of my water/meth usage?

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

A twin tank should last you two fills unless you are always in a hurry from A to B.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Richard,

Should I consider using a MAP sensor with this system considering I will have up to 12 psi of boost? I am not sure if there is a MAP sensor on the M44's from the factory, I doubt it though, that being the case what sort of sensor would be suitable if needed?

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

The system can be configurated to read absolute (0-5V), 2-bar and 3-bar MAP sensor. You can use the 0-5V input for any load related sensors such as mass air, throttle angle etc.

Choose your MAP sensor to match your boost pressure. Up to 15 psi for a 2-bar and upto 30psi for a 3-bar sensor.

On eof the more popular map sensor is made by GM, availoable in 1, 2 3-bar range. The HFS-4 has 0V and 5V output to power it. Requires a custom cable, not costly.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Richard,

still working out the tank situation before the Group Buy closes and I have a question:

How thick of a tank wall will the tank adaptor and filter and the float level work with? What is the minimum and maximum wall thickness they can accomodate???

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Up to 4.5mm

Richard

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

I have a hyundai tiburon V6 with an Eaton MP90 supercharger that boosts 18psi.
( http://www.ngmhouseofpower.com/product_p/assassinsc.htm )
I have the fuel injector is 600cc and my ECU is a stand alone Hydra EMS.

1---What would be good setup for my tiburon?

2---I do not know the injection water/methanol system. Is it simple to install and tune?

3---for shipping in Canada is you can be sent with USPS (with a little extra) because the costs of customs clearance and tax its much smaller?

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

It looks like a very nice bolt on.

Your questions:
1. You can use the hydra's spare PWM output to drive the HFS-4 direct and create your own map or HFS-4 tracks the existing fuel flow and MAP sensor (if available within Hydra).

2. The system is a trunk-mount system. Electronically, it is very straight forward other than the Hydra interface (two wires), just connect the usual 12V and ground supply. All other harnesses are plug and play.

3. I can arrange to have kit to be shipped from the USA because our postal service does not have a tracking system.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hello Richard, do you have wiring diagrams for the VW GTI / Audi A3 2.0T FSI engine?

Thank you.

Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Try in this forum http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=1698

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Can you please specify the year. Is the VW "GTI" part of your description for the A3?

I produce wiring diagrams from an ECU pinout schematic, from various sources such as ender users and sometime form the web. It takes time. If you happen to have the ECU pinout for your car, I can make a wiring diagram quite quickly.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

new to the meth application so please bear with me! need to ask a few questions before the g/b ends so my search time is limited

1. the car is a 3.2 litre s/c v6 in a mercedes benz slk32 amg ihi supercharger, (lysolm style)
2. 6- 480cc injectors (moving to 550cc soon) boost runs avg of 17 psi peak 19 psi. what jets would i need for a 70/30 water mix? im wanting to control intake air temps more than higher octane
3. how fast does the tank run out? would a 5 qt setup be enough for a day at the drag strip?
4. of course the ecu is encrypted in german. how is the hfs4 connected to the car via the electronics? i need all the failsafes i can get for protection against failed check valves solenoids ect.
5. i run a dashdaq with zt-2 wideband for datalogging . will this be tied into the hfs4?
6. can you pm me a total with a 5qt tank and enclosure?
7. not sure if it is of any consequence but the i/c for this setup is mounted under the s/c in the engine v. in order to install the nozzle away from the iat sensor i need to remove the s/c flip it and install the jet then reinstall in the engine so jet sizing is critical as its about a 4 hr removal and install.
8. and can you tell me the dimensions of the 1 gal enclosed setup for the mini? i have limited space in my trunk and that looks like it might fit. price also please with blue led and baffles
thanx for any info

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

You have today to register your interest the GB but you are not fully commited until you have paid the deposit.

Answers to your questins:
1. OE S/C or specials?
2. For total fuel flow of 3300cc/min at M70/W30 mix, I recommend 20% to fuel ratio: 660cc/min @19psi (or 0.9mm + 0.8mm jets), allowing a small head room. System comes with 0.8. 0.9 and 1mm jets as standard.
3. A 5-quart is normally good for a full tank of fuel. For drag days, perhaps 7-8 runs.
4. I cannot read German, but a ECU pinout diagram will help. The HFS-4 has a set of relay contacts for the failosafe usage. Not sure how we can stop the S/C from spinning unless you have a blow-off valve we can activate. There is also 0 or 5V output for failsafe interface purpose with your ECU. Again not sure until I know what is available.
5. The HFS-4 has an 0-5V anlogue output for water flow, you can use this for you data logging purpose.
6. Tanks are sold separtely, Howeton will help you on this. We do supply every parts to be fitted to the tank.
7. Any possibilty of fitting jet before the S/C? it will help reducing the heat soaking from the S/C casing.
8. Jeff howerton will help you on this.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

thanx for the fast reply richard.
the s/c is oem built by ihi for mercedes. electromagnetic clutch on the s/c pulley. no boost until 2000 rpm then wham! full boost builds.
teflon coated rotors so i have been told not to spray pre s/c. your thoughts?
i was referring to a 70% water 30% meth as i want to use this for iat control. not really wanting to tune for meth.
am i correct in reading that a gal of mix would only last for 7 to 8 passes? i typically run at the start of the day with 1/2 tank (approx 7 gals fuel ) mixed to 105 octane (torco fuel additive)
i am starting to think the electronics may be beyond my abilities . i may need a shop i know to install this

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Electromagnet clutch! great to incorpoarte the HFS-4 failsafe output to reduce boost. If you can get hold of a ECU pinout diagram, I can certainly make use of this.

W70/M30 run ~15-17% to fuel, this equates to a 1mm nozzle - untuned. Perhaps I was referring to allowing some capacity so that the tank does not run close to empty and start inotrducing air bubbles to the system. Takes time to purge them out.

There is little electronic to be concerned about, all the cables are pre-wired and terminated into a bunch of colour coded RJ type connetors. The rest is just bolting on the tank, pump and valves. Only the jet needed drill and tap. If you get the pre-assembled tank from Howerton, you just need to secure it down some where in the trunk.

If you can get hold of the wiring diagram, I can make a wiring drawing for your car.

Not sure about the teflon coating, they are the most inert matreial known to mankind, if souce pan is coated with them, spray a small amount of water moist is not going to kill it. Further more. During the life time of the engine, It must have swallowed gallons water from the humidified air, especially so on rainy days.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

this might help you down the road. the chrysler crossfire srt-6 and the mercedes slk32 are brothers under the skin. heres the complete service manual
http://www.majormotorshotrods.com/_d...ice_Manual.pdf

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hi Richard,

Just thinking things through and I have a question or two.

The first one is are you saying there is a 5V power supply available from the controller to power the MAP? If so can the MAP feed the input of both the controller and an LM-2 dataloger at the same time?

Do you think it is possible to take a setup that is tuned to run safely and effectively on 93 octane and use the HFS-4 to basically run 87 octane and use the water meth to make up the octane differnce? I ask as it seems the spread between 87 octane and 93 octane here has spread from the old 20 cent premium to more like 50 cents a gallon.

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hello Dave,

1. There is a 5V supply on ther grey RJ48 connector but it is not normally accessible because we use a 8-core cable instead of 10-core cable. This is to protect against excessive current drawn by an external device abd affect the performance of the controller. There is only 10mA available before the 5V regulator warms up too much. If you want to access this source, a 10-core cable has to be crimped into the 10-way RJ48 plug. Let me know if you want us to supply this with the system.

2. This is a good use of water/mthhanol injection. It is more commoin for the system to replace race fuel with pump fuel. I cannot see any reason why this can't be achieved. The HFS-4 is well equipped to do this job, tracking fuel flow from medium load to high. I would say yes.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hi Richard,

I'm been searching for info on whether hfs-3 can read my new RC injectors, which is peak-and-hold low impedance. If not, can I just trigger by boost instead?

Thank you,
Jess

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hello Jess,

Yes it can. You need to use the green harness (HFS3-v2 only).

The red wire of the grey harness goes to a +12V@pre-crank key position.

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your info.

Jess

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Thanks for the great info and encouraging words on my goals. I think I will build a seperate 5v supply as no sense in taxing the controller if 10mA heats it up.

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

How much current does the MAP sensor draw? They rarely draws more them 2-3mA. The 5V is mainly used for reference purposes.

Which MAP sensor do you have in mind?

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

Either one of the GM 3bar MAP's or the one sold by Inovative for use with their LM-2 data logger. I want the data logger to share the pressure readings with the HFS-4 so that it can track the boost and the controller can use it to help regulate the injection flow. I can ask what the current draw is on their MAP and find out.

Thanks,
Dave

Re: HFS-4 Q&A, application for your engine...
 

There is a flow sensor 0-5V output on the HFS-4 you can data log (blue wire of the green connector).