Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Great to hear Grant, no matter what WI system you purchase (they all have potential to do what I have proved here) make sure you re read over this thread.... (I did this last night my time). It's amazing what can be achieved with WI on a turbo engine. I think RL and Howerton mentioned it in a few replies that being methodical and testing and testing some more is the only way to have the same results as what I have done here.

Some vendors will obviously give you a great starting point, but regardless of this the system needs to be integrated into your own car and each and every single one of these can vary for a whole host of real reasons (not excuses) and so its imperative that you are on top of the whole system before you try to achieve what I have done in my own car (and across the years in many customers cars).

You will love water injection, I have lots of customers (most of them shop owners) who still keep in touch with me years later btw still going on about how unbelievable the science is, once you unlock the door to its proven performance you will never ever run a turbocharged car without it :)

So far as my own next steps? After re reading my own thread here spanning "years" and ever shifting goals and targets I think that is it for my RICESP, its a beautiful car both to look at and to drive, something very very unique and special (to me anyway!).... I have lots of end users I work with on special projects around WI system developments and that will go on as it has for a long time now, some stuff is unheard of on any "forums" and shit you cant just google (too bad for the copy cats lol). Without going into any technical specifics because of confidentiality agreements I have with these people/organizations I can tell you that what I have developed and worked on makes what is public freely shared info and specs look like the majority of the internet LOL. Allot is rotary based but covers all types of ICE principles..... some exciting stuff is based around turbo compounding and running unheard of levels of turbo boost pressure reliably (all due to WI !) in conventional petrol engines...... some of the power outputs are astounding to say the least :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Compound turbos = 100psi.

From the info I have read about the 2013 F1 season, they are going back to turbo charged cars, but with compound turbos!!

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Don't get too excited :( If you read the whole FIA rules proposal it is a fucked formula, WI is banned, VGT is banned, exotic materials are banned, they even dictate how a waste gated system must be run etc etc, it goes on and on and its gayer than an Elton John concert :( The "compound" part they refer too is an old aviation trick of running a second turbine coupled back to the crank shaft via a gear box system, this increases engine efficiency and a little bit of power, some trucks used to run this system as well.

The compounded systems are around 125psi FWI :) pretty radical stuff but I will get shot if I talk much about it lol.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

TBH with F1 I get pretty damn bored of all the BS that goes wit it. The people that run it have spoilt the racing part of it, it's all about pitstops and strategies rather than actuall racing.

Ayrton senna once said "if you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" if the F1 business took this mentality it would be better than anything. They should bring back 12,000rpm 1.5 litre turbos. 4 cylinder only. And let them do what they want with power so long as the fuel lasts a full race and the engines last 4 races.

I won't ask about what you have been sworn to secrecy on, so to not tempt you ;)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

So the compound system is more related to the KERS systems they are using rather than actually increasing input into the engine?

Eco friendly F1 is hugely gay.

That's like having electric drag cars. The whole point of it for the crowd is the speed and the noise, electric drag cars make no noise.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

The "great days" of the automobile racing at the pointy end were in the 70's to the latest early 90's in IMSA and Japan, after that the world went HOMO so far as racing cars and categories goes, NASCAR formulas abound, its all about the show and fuck all about technological advancement and the most powerful racing cars. Contrived doctored air restricted boost limited NA only! or V8 only etc cookie cutter forms of racing divisions, and now ultimate insult is eco friendly bullshit sewn in = Elton John and George Michael in a Californian Public Toilet :(

In the world today there are cool sports, little pockets of turbo love where people apply all kinds of technology new and old and you see some sick cars!@ but sadly it is no longer main stream and no longer are the smartest minds and best people working in it ............. go figure that one out.

Sad but true you will see more exciting/technologically advanced cars at a Slovakian Hill Climb Meeting or a Norway rally cross event than you will see on a F1 BBC broad cast since the mid to late 1990's

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Hi mate, have to say that your notice about Slovakian Hill Climb Meeting make me really interested if you mean Slovakia, Central Europe?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

This sort of thing... yes > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-4s-iFoR50

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

So here is my once annual compression check up of RICESP (3rd year now! ~20,000km covered!)... This is after using the car as my daily driver for over 6 months! and also all of the higher boost settings and reconfiguration I have done over the Christmas breakk :)

Compression is better than 12 months ago!!!!

Rear Rotor
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/852...otor112012.jpg

Front Rotor
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3309/fontrotor112012.jpg

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

that is just brilliant.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Yes it is! :)


I have changed the boost control from automatic to manual setting, and reconfigured a whole heap of settings, this has allowed quick changes in boost settings. The negatives are little v's the ability to not go through a lengthy "learning process" each time you want to try a new setting.

Yesterday after work I took it out and set to 1.92kg/cm boost its flying! just stupid how fast it is really, on the ECU logging it shows 100kmh to 150kmh in 2.05 seconds in 3rd gear, its difficult to look at any gauges in the car minus a quick scan of the tach, but really you change gear by instinct and feel and noise more than looking for a position of the needle ............ it really is that fast. I always have the intention to look at the boost setting or EGT etc, when doing a run in 3rd or higher, but in reality shit is happening so fast, pinned back in seat, car moving around, focused on keeping it on road that none of that is remotely possible. great great fun :) :) :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

So is that a little over 1.9 bar? Are you looking forward to the dyno comp? Would he good for you to get some responses from people when you tell them that the ports are standard.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

I'll have it around that level of boost, but you never know what they run on a dyno since I only ever set it up on the road, may be a bit less or a bit more?

I'd like to go to it, last year they would not let me enter!, if they let me in I'll go, if not then no loss to me :) it's far more important to see/feel how it goes in real life on the road v's a rolling road. Good to go there to show up a few V8's they won't know what's going on lol.

My best estimate is the engine has 540bhp to 560bhp as it is now, what ever this equals on one of the hype roller machines is what I would like to see, as on my honest power recordings it is @ around ~340rwkw (460rwhp) on a std temp and pressure corrected day. Does not sound much in this day and age, especially if you watch some jappo domar video's lol but ironically if you look at how much lighter those cars are and how much more apparent power they have they don't accelerate now where near as good! I remember seeing one Euro time attack RX7 that did 435rwhp (dynodynamics) and weighed 100kg less than my car and it took 8.5 seconds to do 100kmh to 200kmh when my car with only 450bhp @ the engine did it in 7.5 seconds! same gearing lol............. I don't think much of rwhp dyno sheets after doing this for so so many years :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

With the new WI settings I made end of last year the charge temperature has seen the biggest improvements, even on ~1.9kg/cm on a 23 deg C ambient day the value is around 43 deg C on a 3rd to 4th gear pull. This is unreal given the size of my standard IC in the pics I provided (it is really way to small for this level of power) but the WI and the Spray really have worked amazingly well. The fuel temperature stays really well in check going in at 28 deg C (after a 30 minute drive ^ in above test) so it can do with a lot more boost pressure even in warm ambient temps.

Come winter running time, it will be no issue at all (bar traction!) to run the maximum boost the turbo can achieve, though it is near its overspeed limits now (if you choose to respect those *compressor maps*) I know of lots of people who exceed them, either way the more boost I run the more power the car makes and its not showing sign of diminishing gains. Could probably run it to well over 36psi lol. We will see, I'll pass this durability mark like I have all of the others over the years, and think about that next year ;)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

How is your IC too small? In thickness or physical overall size? I have just got myself a PWR charge cooler with complete kit for ?700. ?500 cheaper than brand new. With the position I am going to mount the rad for the CC the volume of water will never let the CC heat soak. And with the addition of WM injection it should be amazing on inlet temps. And the fact that here in the ukthe weather isn't that hot even in the summer should make it a great setup.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Overall size, its limited by the carbon air box and battery position, have to keep it cause of the rare nature of the car ;)

If you run it non WI or spray it gets hot! back when I had it twin turbo and only on about 380bhp @ 1 kg boost it would pull about 70deg C charge temp in the top of 4th gear on a 28 deg C day.

I do dump allot of water on the IC, a trick I picked up of the old Benetton BMW F1 car when I red an article from their engineer who said how much they put over the core per lap in qualifying to keep the charge temps down to 45 deg C.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

This is what iv got coming.
http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index....roducts_id=205

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Before I swapped to a front mount IC on my FD, the temps were around 60-70C at 1 bar, swapped to huge front mount 3" core IC, temps went down to 24C!! And I gained .05 bar of boost and the car felt so much faster. The water temps dropped 10C too which I was amazed at.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

^ Yep been there with my old first gen RX7 decades ago :)

That is why I feel even more proud achieving (over double the certified measured performance of a stock RX7-SP) what I have with this set up as its really just 100% engine and bolt on's (sans turbo!) stock with fine tuning and the power of water injection unleashing the gains in power and durability :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Have you inspected the inlet turbine at all? To see if there is any pitting or degradation from pre turbo?

A lot of people I speak to about WI are scared of pre turbo because they don't want to brake there turbos, but I explain to them that the elford turbo 1st gen rx7 actually have a preturbo carb, injecting petrol before the inlet. And they had no problems with degradation or cooling as they ran no ICs!!

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Many times, there is nothing of the sort worth debating, I mention it in the pre turbo thread in detail, best you read up there. I'm sure in a weak as piss cast alloy thin edge turbo you will see some wear after a while, but its going to be of no consequence compared to the wear and damage caused to your rotary engine not running water injection LOL. I have never seen any turbo ever "break" from running pre turbo, I have seen some wear, and I have seen others not show one sign of any wear at all after 100lt of use! End of the day its a non issue, and for the proven gains you get running it, well I'll let you make up your own mind ;)

I have so many drag race customers who run it and not one has ever complained or raised it as an issue worth ringing or typing an E-Mail over. Most of these are pure methanol runners too, who use it to extend the range of their turbo to beat others who have no idea :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Here is some pics of the IC spray valve, takes fluid from the WI tank, and some pics of the beast :) cleaned her today.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9...27donlarge.jpg

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5...33donlarge.jpg

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4...78donlarge.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1...79donlarge.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/7...02donlarge.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7...66donlarge.jpg

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

So how long does a tank of WM50 last? How many litres does the tank hold?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

My tank holds about 6.5lt.

In a street application (unless you want to go to jail) you are on maximum power less than 10% of the time you are running the engine. One tank of fluid will last me a long time.

I run the car very hard and use more full power than the 10% :) typically I fill it with 20lt at a time (main fuel tank) and before each run (every weekend!!! for the last 3 years!!!) I'll pop the bonnet and just stare at my handy work :) and check out everything and open up the WM50 tank and check the level, I top it up every second week or so, and only put in maybe 2lt at a time, I generally don't ever let the tank go below half when used like this. It does use allot more fluid now that I spray the IC at a greater rate as well to keep the charge temp in check for maximum power.

Once you get used to running WI like this and its in your blood simply checking the tank every second or third time you drive it is easy if its a weekend car ;) and it becomes second nature. Around 6lt is the ideal size for me.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Took the bad boy out today :)

Got it on around 28.5~28.0psi across the rev range, about ~1.9bar region.
As the boost is going up the peak power range creeps up, peak is not happening at around 7700rpm to 7800rpm, in 3rd gear I get well over 15psi @ 3800rpm.
The car is very quick and with the new rear tires has a high level of traction to use all of the power this boost level produces (on a decent, dry, straight road surface!@).
Was driving the other day and pulled the 2nd,3rd,4th gear to 8500rpm and a mate herd it over the mountains near where he was, and thought it was a motor bike ! :) crazy bit of gear it is. The acceleration and velocity you can reach on just the shortest stretches of tarmac are extraordinary indeed.

I'll leave it at this setting and enjoy it for a while before again doing the over 2 bar gauge boost long term settings, I'll leave that for our mild autumn/winter/spring period ;)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Further update to this post off page 13 (way back).

Current VBOX tests @ last stage of boost increase ~ 1.85kg/cm
60mph-90mph = 2.29 seconds
&
70mph-90mph = 1.65 seconds

Makes the F40 look slow now :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXYAJWAV7YY

This is great reference for you.

86mph the 638bhp ZR-1 pulls 0.44G Mine 0.570G

110mph 0.31G Mine 0.411G

ZR-1 = 3350lb as tested
RICESP = 2910lb as tested

Power peak for both cars in two different gear (you can guess the power of my car) it's somewhere around/near/over? 600bhp as remember at higher speeds aero dynamic loads play more effect than weight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SW0H8smRc

100kmh to 200kmh

ZR-1 = about 7.2 seconds
RICESP = 6.2 seconds

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

what do you think you torque is with the 600HP you have got? i should imagine it is somewhere near the same figure?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

With the control valve, how low have you gotten water flow?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

It's around 61+kg ~600+Nm figure. Pure function of the low down power of the standard porting, while the peak power is impressive its the mid range that is even more so. Clutch is rated to ~67kg and if it is not warmed up (due to it being carbon) it will slip marginally the first time you get on the power, so it has some grunt :)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Current system range is 100cc/min to over 1100cc/min

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

With different parts could 100ccm be maintained with 150 psi water input?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Running 2.4 bar gauge boost pressure or just a shade under 35psi, the car kind of accelerates pretty quickly :) Traction is an issue (surprised ha ha) even with the race tires on the back.

100% pump obtained BP Optimax fuel only, no octane boosters needed ;)

Rice Racing RRWEP140 Water Injection wound out to its maximum! *a huge amount of WM50 going through the engine* charge temperature is still under control (better than what I had a couple of years ago running ~17psi boost pressure!) water temp great, engine just loves it. I can't run any more boost pressure on this turbo without greatly over speeding it (it is well off its compressor map now, flow and speed off the charts!) but keeps on making power and the car is just faster in every test I put it through.

This is it for this set up (when my work allows *free time pending* I'll run a couple more tests, post up some performance graphs, maybe even a video). I'll focus my energy on my other long term project that should debut some time soon, where I will really push my development for the ultimate in street rotary powered super car beaters ;)

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

What is the in car power meter reading now then Peter? Did you get to that dyno in January?

Will you be posting up you new project on here? I'm hoping that it will be a 20B project.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

I do around 400rwkw on my proper measure with the VBOX, this would be around 500rwkw on a guess mashine lol :)

I went to the show and the dyno did not show! no excuse offered as to why... must be scared of a little rotary turbo beating all their nugget V8 dinosaurs haha.

Next project has been work in progress for a while, long term thing, I'll update when it gets further along, probably start another thread on it.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

I've always been impressed by what you've done on the other forums and it's funny it took me this long to find your actual build thread. Just read through and it's an amazing build, especially the wing that reminds me of Joe Dirt :D

Now you talk about how you have been messing with the mixture of water vs fuel on this car for years but you've never mentioned the timing. Have you been just doing little tweaks with timing or has the setup required retiming entirely even at the same boost? Such as when you first made your 17 psi base runs vs when you made them now and were much faster.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Ignition timing for rotaries is always around a certain base level (when you run this combination of parts). The only time it ever varies is when you have a very poor intake manifold (and resulting poor chamber filling) and you need to use allot more ignition advance to make power.

As intake manifold boost pressure has gone up normally ignition timing would go down, in my case it did a little but not as much as you would expect, I tune my car for MBT but not as people would know (mean best torque) as that equals death on a rotary engine, but rather *minimum best timing*. When you run very large qty's of WM50 or water alone you need to find out what this level is otherwise you will miss out on a massive amount of power and speed from the set up.

In my own car differences of 1 degree in Leading ignition advance can change the power output by over 12% so I work off the basic principle that when the boost goes up I should have the theoretical power increase that this allows *srt(new boost/old boost) x old power* and if its not there and the mixture is withing a range of 10.2 to 10.8:1 (on a proper ignition system for the job) then the advance is lacking, so I will advance it until I reach this MINIMUM timing level to give me the power I should be getting off the new higher boost level (the timing is established at much lower boost levels that do not stress the engine as much). All in all the ignition timing I run @ 30+psi boost is not much different to what I run @ 14psi boost a few years back. This though is more related to having charge temperature well under control (sub 45 deg C) and having an appropriate AFR (10.2:1) and the right level of WM50 going through the engine for that boost/power/performance level. Spark plug heat range is also important (I run one step cooler v's what I ran @ 17psi).

p.s. You could experiment with active knock control or tuning for conventional MBT (mean best torque) but my many years of engine dyno experience running turbo rotary engines both my self and customers when testing showed that there is little reward for the risks once you have established *minimum best timing*..... the extra gains are in the order of 1 to 1.5% before the engine will detonate and die.

While I do not give out easy > "lists" of all parameters, any avid reader of this thread or my many others can find every bit of information (be it typed or data logs) they need to fill in the gaps and replicate the set up

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Your experience definitely shows through with the results you have acheived. I'd prefer not to copy you outright and I'm more interested in methods right now than anything. I have no experience with rotaries and very limited with piston engines but I am an engineer so the learning and researching for me is always the next best thing to getting my hands dirty. Your thread did motivate me to pull the engine out of my car this week but I have to graduate and get a job before I can even afford an ecu.

When you say that mean best torque lead to death for the rotary, what were you finding was happening? Do you think it was just overall heat or something more along the lines of a peak pressure getting too high?

Also, if you're loosing a lot of power by backing off one degree, are you finding that the timing has more of a hump and you're just on the rising edge or if you advanced further would it fall off just as quick?

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

I'm happy that its inspiring in some way :) its what this web site is about #1

For the timing its more of a plateau, the general slope though once you are onto it is up but the nearer you get to the end its like cliff not in performance drop, but in uncontrolled detonation. The chamber pressure gets high, but as you can imagine it gets many orders higher once detonation onsets and thus must be avoided at all costs especially at these high performance levels.

My theory and experience mostly leads me to the beginning of this "plateau" and the performance is exceptional once you get there V's what its like with only a degree or two less (when being conservative and feeling your way to where the engine starts to work well). At these levels its about self preservation and reliability and not about ultimate power output nor fuel economy per unit horsepower.

Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7
 

Your explaination of how you tune on AI would explain why people in the subaru community where ethanol is available are so in love with it. It basically comes down to being too conservative to give the car a proper tune on gas but once they have their magical ethanol in there they can go all out. Especially since a lot of the guys will run AI injection that still run pump gas. However I think it's more of a way to just turn the boost up to make power and not so much worrying about timing. Then again, all the internet tuners that talk about it on the forum make it sound as though you're lucky to gain more than 2hp by optimizing the timing for the fuel and sadly I think a lot of the people that have the correct answers aren't willing to share the info.

It does show that even with a good knock feedback system like the subaru's, unless its actually on the threshold and looking for knock the system really isn't doing anything. What I'm hoping is that I can use the knock feedback type system to help get closer to what you've acheived in a shorter time frame, I would love to have your experience but I don't see myself matching you in the time it takes to build up one car. So the more sensors I can have on my side the better.

By the way, I'm sure you're following Howard Coleman's turbo thread on the other forum, but it's interesting to see how his setup is basically turning into yours but with a high pressure pump.