How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Im considering running water/meth injection and have been reading for a few weeks now on some of the benefits but am yet to read on power gains with different ratios.

a quick run down on my car and mods:
its a gsr/evo 3 mitsubishi

2.0L 4g63 fully forged internals, 8.3:1 comp ratio wiseco pistons, eagle rods, cometic 1.2mm head gasket, etc etc
GT35R turbo with .70 front 1.06 rear!
280 cams intake and exhaust
Hypertune intake manifold and throttle body
walbro internal and bosch 044 external with surge tank
750cc injectors
haltech E8 ecu
3inch exhaust

putting out around 270kw or 365hp at the wheels. @ around 7800rpm and roughly 20psi

just wanting to know how much power can be made on top with either 50/50 water/meth and other ratios. 40/60 20/80 etc obviously no one can give me an exact figure but a rough idea would be great. Car can be revved to 9000rpm reliably and can run about 24psi all day every day on pump fuel.

any help would be greatly appreciated.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Since the engine is quite happy on pump fuel at 24psi, therewillbe more scope on addding water amd methanol:

Something to try before pushing forward:

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel (300cc to 450cc/min)
M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuel (450-600cc/min)
M100% ....... 20-25% to fuel: 600cc to 750cc/min

If your ignition sysrem can endure these ratio withotu blow-out, then proceed to do some serious tuning on leaning fuel and advancing igniton timing towards MBT.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Thanks for the reply Richard,

whats a rough % of power gains i should see at these suggested ratios:

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel (300cc to 450cc/min)
M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuel (450-600cc/min)
M100% ....... 20-25% to fuel: 600cc to 750cc/min

also i dont fully understand what you mean by the cc/min

for ignition im running 4 x LS1 coils which are good for 1000hp.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

- Those quoted ratio does not make power until it is tuned. Power increase will depends on how aggressive the tune is.

- cc/min is the amount of liquid injected into the engine in one minute.

- I thinik you can jam in a lot more injectant into your engine later.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

I am not an expert as I am still learning this myself but would offer you this advise based off my own experience.

IF the car can take your regular petrol and the tuning is considered acceptable (say not too rich or retarded, and its adequately intercooled *~45deg C charge temp @ full power*) then I would say to you that you will always loose or retain very similar power by the addition of (water, water methanol, or methanol alone) *meth alone has potential to increase power due to latent cooling effect and the fact its the easiest to ignite*.

Keeping major variable like boost pressure constant....You will only make gains thus if your:

*AFR is set too rich
*Air temp is higher than acceptable
*Timing is retarded too much

As Richard I think said, when your Ignition system settings (voltage, current, spark gap, plugs used etc) are capable to ignite the WI mixtures you will typically see gains in power once fuel mixture is optimized, air temperature stabilized & timing added. Obviously the biggest variable is BOOST PRESSURE and the addition of correct levels of WI (again ref Richards notes) will open up a new world of power based on this.

How much extra power???? (Great question)

Its relative to what you can ignite (see ignition tips)
In my own tests 50/50 by mass of water to methanol works well but you can still have too much of this (each car is different! and needs to be tested properly on road and measure the gains) in my own case I needed to use the correct AFR, right mixture, and tuned flow rate to give 21% gains on power with only 8% of this increase given by boost increase alone (SQRT(higherboost/lowerboost). So the Water/Methanol mixture for me to get it to work right needed much individual experimentation to get the best result possible.

What is the practical limit? only you can find out in your own case, if you look towards others tests (very detailed) with a magneto based ignition system you can/could replicate their results I am sure and expect gains of 50%+ more power ***Assuming your turbocharger can deliver the required flow and the higher boost pressures it will allow you to run***

Hope this covers it for you.? (with fine tuning and being realistic I say 10%+ power is achievable)

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

yeah i gathered that i wont see power gains without tuning, i plan on getting it tuned right once installed,

im just after a rough idea on how much there is to gain, power wise...

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel - with more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 10% increase in power? 15hp?

M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20% increase? 30hp???

M100% ....... 20-25% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20-80% is that possible?

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

my a/f ratios are about 11.5 on full boost. so im guessing it can be leaned out a fair bit..??

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

No.

If you are retain boost as is you will see single digit gains in percentage terms compared to what you have now.

Water = power loss (in my experience of your engine type) as it will be set pretty efficiently now on petrol at that power level)

Water/Meth = power the same or you will get gains if you lean it off and increase the timing (struggle to get more than 5%)

Methanol only = power gain, through cooling effect of methanol and its ease to burn, totally in relation to how much you inject! the more you put in to replace the main fuel supply the more it will cool and higher octane, max benefit at higher ratios would yield maybe up to 10% more power

*All of this is keep your original 24psi boost pressure*

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

hmmm thats what i didnt want to hear :(

its easily $1000 outlay for a meth system then add installation and tuning and it could be upto $1500-$2000? for that money i can get a lot more than 10% increase in power.

thats the main thing im trying to find out if its a viable option..

the options are for me to get a bigger wastegate to run slightly more boost as with my 38mm tial im limited to 23-24psi as it wont hold 27ish psi as it hits boost cut cause it cant get rid of excess boost quick enough.

other options are c16 and nos, c16 is cheap outlay but costs a lot to keep running, and nos im just not sure about but i do have a brand new kit sitting here screaming to be put in.

last option was meth injection but with only 10% gain to be had it isnt really worth it...

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

I was going to say that sounds like an Australian set up, reading the 270awkw and parts list..... then I looked at your location lol!

To give you an idea I make 273rwkw (VBOX power measure) = about 305rwkw on homo dynamics machine. Using 16.9psi boost @ 6700rpm, T04Z, 13B-REW motor, W/M injection, full road legal exhaust with catalytic converter fitted and plumb back waste gate. 11.3:1 AFR.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

The outlay is worth it 100% IF you are able to increase your boost pressure ;)

This is the thing you need to get out of this discussion, most of your gains in turbo cars are from boost pressure increase and relatively little come from optimization of the fueling and timing..... especially compared to the boost increase.

Water/Methanol injection requires CDI ignition upgrade and any other parts that will allow you to jack up the boost.

Once you invest in the right gear unlike C16 your not paying for it each time you fill up, and its legal too ;) + it is kinder on your engine (lots written about this).

In your case you need to invest in the ancillaries that will allow the boost increase, then the Water/methanol injection will simply be the lowest stress way on your engine to take care of the fueling side.

You are correct though that it wont magically give you the double digit percentage gains in power alone, its not how it works sadly. :(

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

yeah thats how we roll here in aus lol...

well with my current 38mm gate im limited to either 24psi or 35psi++ lol as it wont hold inbetween it just wants to climb especially with my 1.06rear on the 35R!

so you think my LS1 coils wont be up to the task of running water/meth?

well back to searching for a bigger wastegate looks like.. :@ i was hoping there would be another option.

also what water/meth kit should i be looking at for my setup?

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/maxpower.pdf

^ Have a read of this mate, its most relevant to you ;)

So far as kits Richard makes the best, send him an E-Mail or PM I'm sure he can guide you on that subject.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

interesting read and car was very similar to mine all that was gained was 37hp so yeah not a viable source of power.. looks like i will just run some c16 as the gains from c16 are had at same psi and rpm as my 270kw and should see significant gains. with zero outlay costs.

i will eventually look back to water/meth injection but cooling intake temps could also be done with a dry ice box or cryo kit etc...

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

I think you have missed the point with this.?

W/M gives massive gains and its running costs are 1/10th of needing to buy C16 ;) + its much kinder on your engine (that's been proven showing lower peak cylinder pressures along with increased BMEP = less stress for more power) .

The only missing element you need to take care of is your ignition system capacity *you will read that in the article I gave you*

So far as power production goes nothing will ever match W/M, durability wise its way out in front, cost wise after initial outlay its a no brainer...... and legality well, its the only thing you can run period and still enjoy your "road car".

if you want a simple one off hit of increased output, then you buy "power in a can" (C16) that is the most cost effective for a once off hit, long term its crap though, just as methanol is crap too or any substitute for petrol as your base fuel. W/M injection is the ideal, its in no way the easiest and lots of people misunderstand it or what its about and what you can do with it. But make no mistake nothing will make more power than that will while reducing stress on your engine at the same time. ;)

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

To give you an idea of why we love it so much.

I have a customer who runs a RX3 drag car with small 28"x9" rear slick and he uses C16 gasoline main fuel along with my pre turbo water/methanol injection system, this runs 37psi and does 8.3 seconds @ 162mph...... but the best part of it all is that the engine lasts, and has done 4 times more work than it ever has before with nil compression loss. He will never run another drag car without it for the increased durability alone to use his words & its simplicity and low maintenance V's running a pure methanol fueled car.

Engines are far less stressed when they are water injected, increased power is only but one part of why we are big fans of it.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

but thats the thing, the water/meth doesnt give the hp increases, it does prolong engine life and reduced intake temps and alot of other good stuff, i understand the less stressed thing but my motor on 400kw on c16 wont be stressed at all as its built to handle it, if you get me.

Im after a power increase, at least 100kw and water/meth injection alone cant give that to me.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

By the same logic C16 or methanol wont give you the increase either then ;)

ALL of these things require more boost pressure and to a lesser extent more fine tuning of the engine.

I get what you are trying to say but the stress and how energy is released is very important, internally nothing reduces more combustion stresses than by the addition of water (heat and peak pressure), you need to do some research on it (plenty on this web site). Remember real engineers worked all of this out ~100 years ago, and car people are thinking they have invented thermodynamics :) it was all figured out long long ago & its rules have been established long before that... The temperature reduction of the inlet charge is a minimal effect or component in the types of vehicles we apply water injection on compared to what it does in the combustion chamber.

Still everyone needs to pick what is right for them and if your motor can handle it and you want a one off hit then "power in a can" is the best option.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Godfather,

I think you are missing the point of the action of water/methanol injection va power vs C16. Listen and learn for riceracing.

Three major items are needed to make aditional power:
1. More oxygen (+fuel) ....... bigger turbo and nitrous. Nitromethane give you both.
2. Knock free ....... the biggest enemy to power. Water or C16 can help
3. Combustion temperature ...... alumimium piston melts at 550C. Without incylinder cooling by water, your power production is limited.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

I cant stress enough for all of the years and multiple cars I have been exposed too that there is no one answer that fits everyone, each system needs fine tuning and in some cases it can make or break the combo and peoples opinions about what is "crap" and what is good. WI generally gets a bad wrap from many "specialists" who honestly have no idea let alone qualifications.

This RX3 has been a classic case in point, many meetings and phone calls over months and finally the sweet spot is reached, its involves usually people doign things they are not sure of or even recommending as it takes a long time and many sample cases of cars to establish what does work in many environments be they dyno or the track

RX3, 28x9 tired, 13B powered.
C16 fuel
WI running 50/50 mix (cant tell you exact ratio)
37psi boost
= 730rwhp on a dynojet
8.32 seconds @ 162.37mph
engine been running for 8 meetings and over 30 dyno runs, still perfect. And making enough grunt now to break the gearbox :)

Based off this real world proof, shipped out another WI kit today to a local competitor who learned of this ;)

Moral is you really need to thoroughly test and research and develop your system and then be prepared to do some more, it is all too easy especially today in the realm of the interweb and one off articles to come to your own conclusion about what is right and what is wrong...... you don't need to believe me or Richard, just look at what was done in the ultimate reciprocating engines during the war. The stuff there puts what most of us do today to shame by a factor of 10.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

ok well basically weather i use C16 or E85 or water/meth im going to have to add more boost and timing to see any hp gains

so my initial question was roughly how much gains should i see??

say with my current setup im on 270awkw at 20psi at 7800rpm and if on water/meth i went 28psi @ 9000rpm what would be my rough gains if i followed richardL's guidlines of:

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel (300cc to 450cc/min)
M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuel (450-600cc/min)
M100% ....... 20-25% to fuel: 600cc to 750cc/min

what are the downsides to running 100% meth injection? is it corrosive?

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

I have run 100% Meth (in the region of 2l/min)for a while now with no downsides. Main problem for me was tuning the transition into meth as I have a basic on/off system (have got it running seamlessly now but it took some time..).

Without meth on UK fuel I could only run 12psi without having to pull loads of ignition timing and kill the power/ response of the engine. With the Meth active I can run anything the turbos can chuck out with 0 knock counts and more timing!, wastegates are blowing open at 22psi but I`ve seen 26+ with the front wired shut.

Even at 12psi I can feel a difference between straight petrol and Methanol (I believe as well as cooling the charge Methanol also supplies extra oxygen to the combustion chamber).

If you run a big quantity of Methanol you need very good failsafes incase of an injection fault, I have a few.

1. Boost controller will shut down if the AFR goes leaner than 11.8:1 (petrol afr).
2. Boost controller is powered from the Meth pump live, if there is a power problem to the pump the car won`t boost..
3. The fuel map transition is activated by the Meth pump live, no pump activation means no main fuel enleanment.
4. Low Meth level in tank will shut down pump/ boost controller and 2nd fuel map.

Works very well for me, will have to get my car on a dyno but the difference is night and day between straight petrol and meth injection.

Car is a 3l Twin Turbo Mitsubishi GTO (hybrid TD04-16g`s).

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Can we inject nitromethane too ?

Whilst Ive no power figures to give..Ive ran a couple of Subarus with 100% meth injection, and fairly large jets.
Was easy to pick up 5mph or so at the end of the 1/4 after re-tuning, and were using a little over 30psi boost on 97RON pump fuel.

Turbo's used on those cars were approx T61 and T63mm, so slightly smaller than your GT35.

It was a few years ago, but I think highest trap was around 137mph on bog standard road tyres, full weight road car.


As for the OP using E85 as a fuel...from what you say, your fuel system will have no chance of supporting it.
In fact your existing 750cc injectors are probably already being pushed hard.

Re: How much power should i be making once meth injected??
 

Nitromethane: yes you can but you have use a separate injectionsystem because all the WMI system will be able to cope with nitromethane - all rubber/plastic wetting parts will parish very quickly.