Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey

I recently purchased a HFS-3 PWM SN 101020.

I have wired everything up and am getting into the testing phase. I'm using 1000cc injectors, I had a OMNI 4Bar MAP sensor but I removed this and went back to the stock MAP sensor as I thought this might be causing issues.

When running through the various tests, I can make the pump come online, I can get the Pump and FAV to work using the test functions. It sprays a HELL of a lot of water, so that's a good sign!

If I drive the car with the setting on threshold to the minimum it comes on very early and then as the rpm increase it sprays ALOT, all good signs! I haven't put a nozzle on the end of the pipe as yet, I have been testing with no nozzle at the moment. Just to see it all works etc.

I also tested the Barograph, when testing 3 or 4 bars light up along with the "B" on the end, if I use the other test function FDC the Gauge stops displaying the "S"

My problem is coming in that I want to trigger the unit at about 0.3bar pressure and then from my understanding the flow will increase as the IDC increases.
When I pull the jumper off the IDC and put it onto MPS, the threshold light remains on regardless of what I try, high or low settings. This light also activates if I leave the jumper off both triggers, the only time it does not light up regardless is if the jumper is on the IDC prongs.

When the jumper is on the MPS prongs and the unit is on the pumps activates and stays activated. No water passes through as I can only assume the FAV is not activating and the WInjection indicator comes on and the water level indicator comes on. This happens regardless if the car engine is on or off. I have double checked that the wires we tapped into on the ecu is the wires with voltage, ie the signal wire. when the car is off it shows 5v on the cable.

I have not changed any other setting on the unit apart from moving the jumper to MPS trigger...

has anyone had this and can anyone help? I'm tearing my hair out to try get this right :/

Thanks in advance!!

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

OK. Can you measure the voltage of test point pin17 (MAP sensor voltage)

1. pre-crank
2. engine running

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hi Richard

Great, will do, I will have results for you tonight. Thanks again for helping.

I was reading one of the other posts on the bar graph test, from my understanding i should see all bars light up. i only see about 3 or 4, will confirm later. do i need to adjust the SC within the test to see more?

Thanks!

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hi Richard.

i have been searching the web like a savage and i think i might have found the issue, of course tonight's test i think will confirm this.
The wires we went off is showing 5v when i tested it last night, this is pre-crank. so i'm expecting to see 5v on the voltage when doing the test tonight. i think the issue comes in that we used the power supply cable instead of the signal cable.

I'm not 100% sure if this ECU pinout is correct but from my understanding the voltage is the key here. i'm assuming if i can find out which wire shows the 1.7 to 2.4 Voltage and when idling the 1.1 to 1.6 voltage then that is the wire i need to trace back and connect to the control unit ECU harness.

This might also explain the constant on no matter what...?

What is the MPS trigger set to read voltage wise?

Thanks
Pierre

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hi Richard

Right did some testing tonight and making progress!

On initial testing I was seeing 5v pre and post crank, this explains the system triggering no matter what. :confused::mad:

On testing the pins on the sensor again and doing some tracing etc I found the signal wire. pulled the ECU, redid the wiring and tested again. Now I see 2.26v (assuming 0.01bar) on pre crank and 1.26 on idle (-0.07bar)

I set the unit just past half way which seems to be just above 0.01bar. The pump still activates with no water coming through but i'm assuming this is because MPS is purely a trigger and the FAV is activated by IDC signal.

I also tested the Bar graph again. on connecting the jumper i see 4 bars but by turning up the SC dial on the gauge I can see all bars. so assuming this is all ok and working. I tested the FIDC again and still same, the "s" disappears while this is on the then comes back online when you remove the jumper.

I put in the 1mm nozzle and headed out for some testing. here is where I get confused... :/

When I reach the trigger point the unit seems to activate, I see water on the windscreen. The "B" comes on for a second or two and then disappears... i'm only running on actuator till I get this right (0.8bar) the W.injection light comes on and then the water level light comes on... I thought maybe the tank is getting empty, I filled it up, being a 7L tank. it won't run out fast...

I tried setting the SC values as well as the WL and WH values to all extremes as well as setting the gain to high and low, no difference on the gauge... I never see any bars coming on. Could this be because i'm using 1000cc injectors. they are the stock injectors 580's de-capped, flow was tested at 1078cc...

my other thought is the unit is going into some kind of failsafe, but the one reassuring thing is no matter what, the water still flows, so FAV and pump are activated and working... the gain just changed the flow from low to high...

I'm slowly getting there... thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

EDIT* on speaking to the guy that did the wiring... he says he only checked continuity for the injector wires, not which is positive and which is negative.... IF these were the wrong way round. could this cause the issues I am seeing? I only found this out now, so can test again tomorrow.

Thanks!
Pierre

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

The system appears to be working properly. I like to clarify a few things:

1. When you use the FDC jumper to show IDC%, the "S" will be overrided.
2. You large injector means you are running low IDC%. the system will inject less.

Question 1: What is your maximum fuel IDC%?
Question 2: What are the jet sizes are you using?
Question 3: What map sensor will you be using? factory or 4-bar?

I need these information before I can help you further.

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey Richard

Ok Cool, makes sense.

Just wanted to check one thing, so if you use the FDC jumper, instead of seeing flow on the gauge you will see the actual IDC while running the system? if so thats awesome to do test runs with!

Answers.

1. At Current boost aiming for 1.1 bar I have seen a max of 51% IDC, at the 0.8bar i was achieving last night this would have been at about 32% max. i can do testing on higher boost, but wont go above 1.1 for now. i have a wastegate issue, new Tial is on the way.
My aim is a Daily driver Pump fuel 1.1bar, so max IDC I expect there is around 50%
My highboost will be 1.4bar. i would expect to see about 80%+ on that.

From my understanding i will need to scale the bars using the SC trimmer?

2. The Jet i had on last night is the black ringed one, if memory serves me it is the 1mm jet (the biggest in the pack) i will do some testing later on using two jets versus one as i have tapped two holes onto the intercooler, there is no real hard and fast rule as to what works with pre or post intercooler or using a combination. but i will only do this once i have the system working properly with one jet.

3. I would like to use the 4Bar aftermarket one, i had originally started with this one, i swapped it back to the original to rule out a sensor being the issue. i can put the 4bar back and amend the scaling in the ECU and retest the voltage.

The red and green wires for the injector have us alittle confused. would it be possible to explain these? from my understanding on the injectors. there is a common wire - in the subaru seems to be common negative and a signal wire. the common wire leads back to the ecu and all 4 injectors use this. then each injector goes to it;s own separate wire on the ecu. in my case the Blue wire leads back to it;s own pinout and the red wire leads back to a common point.

Thanks again!!

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Yes, the FDC hi-jack the guage to display FIDC for diagnostic purpose. Normally, it displays water flow.

You only scale the SC after you have done all the tests and jets.

1. I suggest you cut x1 and solder link the x1.5 to amplify the IDC signal a tad. "underside of the board" since you are not using 100% fuel injection.

2. If you are only using 1x 1mm jet againist a 4000cc/min fuel capacity, you are well under jetted. You be running two jets.

100% water ........ 10-15% to fuel
M50:W50 ........... 15-20% to fuel
100% methanol ........ 20-25% to fuel
(these are the simple rules that work well)

3. If you can not using boost as a trigger, you don't need to tap into the MSP sensor at all. I have always stress that IDC trigger is a more accurate indication of enigne load then boost. Boost is different at different engine load or gear.

4. I think you should wire the red to a known switched 12V source, active only at the pre-crank position. It will be less confusing and reliable. Injector (+) can sometimes be spiky and noisy. Some cars still have resistor packs (no good for the HFS3).

You are nearly there. What car do you have?

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey,

Thanks for the response.

I have a 2006 Subaru Impreza STi - ADM/EDM version.

Ok just some clarity-
1. With soldering this link, with this affect the actual IDC in the future, just making sure i understand this. if the current signal is 1:1, so 20% is 20%, when i get to using anything more then 50%, will i not hit the 95% duty cycle limit? Would you be able to send me a picture of what you mean on the underside? i will get someone to do it for me. i'm not over excited about touching the board with a soldering iron :)

2. Great thanks, will keep this for future use. at the moment i only plan to run water. To test the the actual flow i receive from the jets, can i use the "sys" jumper to force the system online and then capture the amount of water it uses?

3. I'll play with both and see what works best for me. i've wired in both so the options are there and then see how it goes, IDC might be the better option.

4. I'm a little lost on this one.
So Injector + must go to a switched 12v but only on pre-crank. So wiring it to accessory or a source that allows say gauges or boost controller to come online only when key is turned is wrong?
I know there is a common wire for the injectors and then there is the signal, and i'm almost 100% sure then we have this right. i can move it to another power source if thats a better bet.
I also take it that i can see the pulse on idle and driving that we must have this right. would you be bale to give me the diagnostic pins to double check this before going wire hunting?

ah yes, i remember in a few posts back i mentioned that when on boost and the unit is spraying the water level light comes on, even though the water level is not low... it seems to stay on with the w.injection light. what should this mean?

ah yes, i remember in a few posts back i mentioned that when on boost and the unit is spraying the water level light comes on, even though the water level is not low... it seems to stay on with the w.injection light. what should this mean?

Thanks!! :)

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

1. If you are not going to reach 95% ever, then it is better to pre-amplifier the idc. Alternatively, you can leave it at 1:1 and use the gain trimmer to rescale the idc after the trigger point.

2. It is always better to measure the rate manually with the intended jest/jets for one minute. (use the SYS jumper)

3. ---

4. The red wire just tell the turns the entire system on. It is better to use a switched 12V rather the injector (+) as it can some time be very noisy and spiky. We have some Subaru drawings on this forum, mainly USDM but can be similar. Check this out. It is important this 12V should only be active at the "pre-crank" and "run" key position.

The injector (+) is often not found at the ECU. But we have picked a suitable pin at the ECU on the wiring drawings here.

Do you have a v11 or v12 gauge? (marking at the back of the gauge).

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey Richard

Cool, ok i finally have got some more answers. spent alot of tonight going through wiring and making sure all is as it should be.

The injectors were def wired correctly, although the + was coming from the injector +, i moved this to the switched 12v that is used to power the unit. this only see's 12v at pre-crank and running. The "-" also know as pulse wire, is def in the right place and i tested and confirmed by tracing the other injector wires... one things for sure, i'm learning how these things are wired :) haha

With the change in wiring i'm not seeing any difference in the gauge, i didnt really expect to see one, but just making note,

I took a video of the testing i did with the unit... The water level light coming on happens when i do the test aswell. so this helped in not having to drive around trying to get a video, i will post it as soon as it has uploaded to "youtube" Basically i get the same results, system triggers and comes online, w.injection light comes on, during that the B comes on the goes away and the water level light comes on and stays on.

YouTube link -->> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPZZfGl15c
Sorry about the volume, but you will get what i mean by the lights.

What does the "B" on the gauge mean? it flashes for a second of so and then is gone. i'm concerned that something is still not right.

i have attached a picture of what i found on the back, from my understanding i need to break the x1.0 link and get someone to solder the x1.5 link to make this the new amplifier for IDC, this should hopefully increase the flow and i'll see some bars on the graph when i test or drive. is this the right spot?
I will get this setup today.


i'm not sure which version gauge it is, i can pull it out but it requires alot of stripping, the whole front face comes off, radio and evc come out, aircon vents and then need to remove the whole pod, if we can pick it up off the serial number of the unit that would be great, otherwise i'll strip it out tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your help, def making progress and understand the system alot more now!!

Just as a thought, the I was looking at the system this morning, The FAV could be mounted more securely, it is pretty tight but i'm thinking of ways to do it differently. Would this cause any funny results?

oh btw i looked at the wiring, yes sadly these are all USDM, they differ from ADM and EDM. If it's helpful i can send you what i used and you can make it into a better readable diagram and then post that for 06 ADM :)

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

There is still something wrong somewhere. I have a few questions and tests. DOn;y make the mods for the time being.

1. Are all the trimmers and jumper links in the default positions (12 o'clock, gold dot on top)
2. Can you measure test pin 16 for me at idle, blip the throttle hard
3. Does the green led on the circuit board blink at idle.

The "B" lead will only stay on if the flow is inside the WL and WH after triggering. The v12 has two yellow leds. On water injection and water level.

I would like to have a copy of the subaru wiring diagram so I can make drawing for the ADM. please email them to me richard-at-aquamist.co.uk

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Sure thing, will do the drawings for you and mark exactly where i put what. hopefully it will help someone else, but to be truly honest, i would still check the car before i blindly did it again. just for piece of mind :)

Ok i have done the tests.

1. I put everything back to the way it was when i got the unit. all jumpers and dials, i also set the dials on the gauge to stock.

2. Test pin 16 at idle is about 0.11v and on blipping the throttle the most i saw was 0.58v but it varied, i kept hitting it a few times and it was anywhere between 0.11 and 0.47's, max to 0.58.

3. Yip, green light pulses at idle. i have done a vid to show what it does
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxUHS...ature=youtu.be

:)

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

I just thought, are the fuel injectors the low impedance type?

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey Richard.

Nope:(

they are stock high impedance ones, they are just decapped to allow greater flow.

Did the voltage test on pin16 show you anything?

By the water level light coming on, does this not show a failsafe mode?

Thanks!!

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

The voltage at test point 16 is about right at idle or un-loaded. Is it possible to make a measurement whilst you are putting in some serious load (on boost).

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey Richard

Shew it;s been awhile, my car has been to Julian in Cape town and has been back for awhile now, we got the boost issue resolved and now after doing a daily driver map i start playing with the Aquamist again... Julian found the issue to be a flow sensor from before. i think he swapped this out and it has been working since.

I have made some changes and wanted to run a few things past you.

1. We broke the X1.0 and soldered the X1.5 link.
2. I removed the 0.8 Jet from testing and have put in the 1mm and the 0.9mm, 0.9 Pre intercooler and 1mm post intercooler.

I set the gain to the lowest and have slowly moved up the gain till i either saw the temps dropping alot or the car choked, i haven't hit choke yet and am at 75% gain. the temps drop off nicely on boost and there is no choke, the issue i get is the bars are almost all lit and the w-injection and water level light come on at the top end of RPM.

What i have seen now is my IDC is higher then it was before, it's on 55% thats the max it has hit. this is on my low boost map.

I'm planning to go to high boost soon and i expect at least 70% based on what i'm seeing now.

I wanted to know, would it be worth me going back to just the X1.0 link? am i maxing out the system by using the X1.5 and IDC is 55%?

if i hit the 70% or higher, i'm assuming that with the 1.5 i will hit over the 95% threshold and max the system??

My aim for the mist is using it on highboost, low boost is a side show. so whatever settings i have need to be optimal on high boost (1.5bar)

Thanks!!

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Ideally, put the spare jumper link to FDC (Fuel duty cycle). This will hijack the gauge to read IDC% instead of water flow. Take the car out for a WOT drive and tell me what is the maximum bar displayed. Judge your 1x or x1.5 link from there on.

Re: Help with HFS-3 and MPS Trigger
 

Hey Richard,

Thanks for this, sorry took so long to come back to you, i did the change and at 1.1 bar boost pressure, the gauge reads 2 bars from full, so i'm pretty confident that i will need to go back to x1.0 to benefit from the setup when upping the boost.

Would it be best to just nip the solder link between the two connections on the 1.5 or heat it up first and try remove it, then link the x1.0 again?

Thanks!!