Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Hi There,

I'm a bit of a noob but have been reading about WMI for years incuding on this forum. I would like to implement a water only system tht I can use year round with occasional trips to the mountains/snow. I hope to order an HFS4 by the end of the month and install it on my 3.6L pentastar jeep JK wrangler with a measured 9psi peak TVS style blower.

I am wondering if my proposed installation techniques will help avoid line freezing.

First of all, since this will be a water-only system, I was thinking to run the lines through the car and possibly above where the exhaust runs where the floor is a little warm. It's a jeep so I am not worried about a line break and getting gallon of water inside. That is a pretty tame issue for a jeep.

That pretty much leaves the lines in the engine compartment exposed. I can route that part of the line along the side of the blower to keep it from freezing.

Aside from giving the jeep time to warm up, are there any install or use technics that I can use (aside turning the system off) to keep this a year round system?

At this point, I am thinking to run the aquamist tank so maybe a bottle of Heet or two when I head to the mountains as extra protection?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

I am currently running E85, so the need for methanol in my system isn't there. That said, the alcohol could still be beneficial for you. I run -30F washer fluid as that is as cold as it's going to get ever here. I could cut it 50/50 with water if I wanted to, but don't want to worry about it.

The big question is, are you going to get tuned for the kit, and how much will you be spraying? Alcohol will change your AFRs, but I don't know how much it will change with a small nozzle with a small percentage of alcohol.

If you have a wideband, you could try both mixes and see what your AFR looks like.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

I still plan to run methanol in the tank too. I ended up ordering three jets that I hope are sized for 50/50, washer fluid and pure water. I will just swap jet and tune when I swap the tank contents.

When I run pure water, I can do that without bugging (or paying) my tuner for a new tune. The Diablosport Trinity allows me to modify my existing AFR-correct tune with up to 10 degrees of timing advance in three different RPM ranges.

Don't want to fling any dung here but why bother with E85? My tuner said that if I wanted an e85 tune that he would end up richening the mixture and lowering the fuel economy and I would go through a tank of gas a lot more quickly than I already do. Jeeps with 37" tires already have a serious drinking problem as it is. ;)

The tack that I am going go take is to tune for pure petrol in the fuel tank and a second tune for WM50.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

..........

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Yes, with the Diablosport Trinty, I can carry a number of tune files in the device and flash the PCM when I want to change a tune. And that is indeed what I am doing.

The device also allows you to customize the tune with quick adjust parameters that take less time to fiddle with than loading a complete tune.

The interesting parameters that I have available (as software "knobs") are:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm


I can add or subtract up to 20% fuel:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm


I have WBO2 connected and the device allows me to monitor and log interesting PIDs like:

ST KNK RETARD
LT KNK RETARD
BASE SPK
SPK ADVNC

Short term knock retard seems to just be the difference between BASE SPK and SPK ADVNC.

Anyway, before installing the HFS-4, my tune already had as much timing as I was going to get out of it.

Here are my settings for 25% methanol by weight:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm +8*
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm +6*
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm +8*


I can go rich or lean by up to 20%:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm 2% lean
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm 5% lean
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm 6% lean

I think ignition is pretty much dialed in with the above and I get no long term knock retard and a little short term retard under extreme conditions but I understand that to be normal.

AFRs are about 11.6% across the RPM band at WOT and I am still fine tuning.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Although the control knobs are nice and simple I really don't like them at all.

From experience, I learnt to better adjust a basemap accordingly instead.

Could you share with us what engine/head/turbo etc.. specs you have. Also ignition timing values/ spark plugs over stock and ignition system is a good reference aswell?

Mine was an Forged 1.5L 8.5:1 compression / complete stock head / GT2560R @ 22psi 6800-7200rpm.

Ignition system is haltech truck coils x 4 with high tensions. Stock heatrange worked fine with 16psi while increase heat range by 1 with 22psi.

Ignition timing was high 40Degrees on low boost tapering low 40s on high boost.

AFR was found to be 13.5-14 running WM40.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Completely agree on hard coding everything in the tune file itself and running sans knobs. You get finer control and more options to twiddle in the tune. I plan to get it all hard coded anyway, whether I send it to my tuner or do it myself. Either way, twiddling the knobs is kind of fun to get it in the ball bark and then go with the tune file and logging from there.

In my case, this is a rock crawling jeep wrangler that goes offroad. I carry camping gear and some spare parts in case I break it out in the middle of nowhere. If I shove a spare axle through the water tank while navigating the granite rock garden then I can just back the timing out easily. Reflashing the tune file takes more time.

The Diablosport CMR software that you would use in conjunction with the device is cost prohibitive for the individual at ~$2,500 USD. Not sure how many cars you get to tune with that, though.

The other option I have is the HP Tuners software and interface. That is more reasonable @~$850 or so for the "pro" version that can take 4 analog inputs.

The engine:
3.6L VVT "Pentastar" as found in a 2013 Jeep wrangler
Compression 10:1
This motor itself is all stock and pretty well built from the factory. For example, I believe that it has forged internals.
Stock HP for this motor in the jeep is 285bhp on 86 octane. Other models are rated at about 20bhp more from software tuning (and I think a 91 octane requirement).
The ignition system is stock but it has the individual coil packs above each spark plug like my E46 BMW. Plugs are also the stock type and range.

Supercharger: Eaton 1320 TVS with liquid to air intercooler mounted under the blower and between the heads. The blower is rated at 8psi but I am logging over 9psi peak and with the WMI flicked on, I just barely crested 10psi - like 10.2 psi. I also opened up the intake because the stock intake was a little restrictive with the blower trying to pull through it. It took opening the intake to get it over 9psi.

I had not been logging base spark and actual spark until my most recent log because I was just tuning based on the amount of knock retard that I was seeing.

At WOT and as boost and RPM are building, I am seeing Base Spark between 18 and 19 degrees. Actual Spark is ranging between 23.5 and 26 degrees.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Thanks for the reply.

Good reference for the Jeep guys....

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

You should not tune to knock with wi...

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

What is your perspective on tuning W.I Flr power ?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

You don't blindly advance ignition timing because you risk unnecessary excessive cylinder combustion pressure past MBT...

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Agreed. But What if you don't have access of a dyno or knock control system, how would you tune for w.i?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Hey gents. Thanks for the feedback. Appreciate the dialog. Bunch of assumptions being made with the above, though.


First of all and despite my original post, I was only a noob with WI, not tuning or FI per-se. And that label is rapidly wearing off at this point anyway. :)

Timing is not being advanced past MBT. That is an adjustable parameter as well - I just failed to mention it. When you advance, you adjust them both by the same amount.

My settings are really:
I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT MBT SPARK 1-3.8krpm +8*
WOT MBT SPARK 4-4.8krpm +6*
WOT MBT SPARK 5-7krpm +8*
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm +8*
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm +6*
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm +8*

The settings were not blindly changed at all. Not sure how you got that impression. The motor was well tuned before I started spraying with the HFS4 and we are talking about a stock motor with an aftermarket supercharger here. The MBT is determined by the PCM based on the given conditions. WOT MBT had to be lowered already to start with when the blower was installed by retarding the ignition timing (hard coded in the tune supplied by the Supercharger vendor). What I see myself as doing here is uninstalling the spark retard more so than just randomly cranking up the ignition timing by loosening a bolt and then twisting the distributor some arbitrary amount by hand to make power.

I was actively logging the appropriate PIDs as well as monitoring them real time to see what the motor was doing. I could see if and when the PCM was pulling timing. WBO2 is monitored as well. I was most concerned with Long Term Spark Retard and backed off the spark advance in the appropriate RPM range when any hint of it is registered. The PCM adjusts in half degree increments. If we were in the danger zone, this reading would be going crazy - meaning that the PCM is going crazy by pulling the timing in response to the crazy knock.

Advancing the WOT & WOT/MBT timing in 2 degree increments is also far from blind. That was the approach I took with the assumption that I would probably stop at 7-8 degrees of advance. I have read enough about WI/WMI to see that folks tend to get 6 to 10 degrees of ignition advance over not having it so used that as my ceiling - along with the device's limit of 10 degrees of advance or retard over the loaded tune.

Bottom line is that I tuned the WOT spark advance with a target of 2-3 degrees of short term retard under extreme conditions and absolutely zero long term retard under all conditions. And like I mentioned, I eased into those settings. The other tack I took was to ease into the higher RPMs and boost levels as well.

In fact, I now keep the tuner device on all of the time now with the following 4 soft gauges loaded (I'll try to post a pic later):
ST SPK RETARD degrees
LT SPK RETARD degrees
AFR/WBO2 Percent (via analog input)
WMI CCs (estimated - via analog input)

I am also monitoring MAP and BARO on another gauge page - among other things.

Until now, I was not considering an EGT sensor and controller but now that I am I am in this deep, it does seem like another great (off-dyno) tuning tool.

With the tools that I have available, I feel that I do not really need a dyno to come close to ideal. That is not to say that an experienced tuner could not extract even more HP on a dyno because I believe that they can. it is just a question of how much more.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

I tuned my engine like FL_Rubicon mentioned here, the only difference is that I tune via ecu directly into the map not using knobs.

I set a fuel base map and an ignition base map with an amount of water/meth mixture and flow and make several WOT runs especially on 4th gear datalogging every run.
After these runs I check all the plugs and see any signs of over advanced timing or detonation kinda old fashion style. If plugs look clean and engine felt torqy and responsive basemap is saved and used as it is.

Regarding EGTs, I have one for every cylinder (4) and kinda seem like a waste of money since over advance show cooler egts while retard shows higher. Infact currently I just log the hottest cylinder only and study effects. Never had any help tuning the engine with them just knowing the values...

Quote : "Advancing the WOT & WOT/MBT timing in 2 degree increments is also far from blind. That was the approach I took with the assumption that I would probably stop at 7-8 degrees of advance. I have read enough about WI/WMI to see that folks tend to get 6 to 10 degrees of ignition advance over not having it so used that as my ceiling - along with the device's limit of 10 degrees of advance or retard over the loaded tune."

I was in that feeling for long time myself and I felt exactly how you feel like now. Until there was a day and decided to go my way and trial my own findings.

The result, got about 10-15 Degrees of ignition timing on boost over the folks while running 14AFRs on low to mid-range boost (1-14psi) and 13.5AFRs on high boost (14-22psi) and injecting 44% W.I . The engine came so powerful that I needed to upgrade bigger and stickier tyres to WOT the car !

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

You just proved me you don't fully understand tuning to MBT. You are basically telling us that you are tuning close to knock. The problem is that with WI and when you spray a lot, you can go past MBT and still have no engine knock.

That would put excessive stress on the engine without any audible or knock sign. The PCM or ECU would not know you have past MBT because it would not knock given enough effective octane increase brought by the WI...

The MBT is NOT determined by the PCM. It remains in open loop only to be modified by a few timing tables. For maximum engine performance and durability it is important not to exceed MBT and having the right timing tables set on the safe side of things. So yeah, sorry but I still consider yourself as a newbie based on your tuning strategy and explanations.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

And I do plan to send the adjustments I made along with the logs of them to my tuner to let him put it in the tune file. I will use that for day to day. When out on the granite rocks, I may still run a more conservative pure water tune.

Sure. Fair point. Then again, I am making no claims as to being an expert on the subject. Just that I am learning a lot about WI/WMI. I also feel that I am getting good results and that I am not in any danger zone.

This thread is completely off topic and I am on WM49 now anyway - not pure water. I found a local source for methanol that is not over priced so will start mixing my own (50/50 by weight).

While there may be excess stress being put on the engine, it is really not clear what actual harm will be caused here without registering detonation. I feel that I am sized correctly and not overspraying. I have gain set to zero (12 o'clock).

How many engines have you actually seen or heard of that failed as a result of not getting MBT correct where there was also no trace of detonation?

How does one determine the correct MBT? Are you able to do this yourself or enlighten those of us who are interested?

Do you have an ability to conduct a spark sweep process and can you possibly explain to the noobs how to do this without a dyno? That would be fantastic.

I have definitely heard of an engine fail a swift death by detonation when the stock tune was left in place after a supercharger install. It was ugly. Catastrophic failure, requiring a complete engine replacement. In that case, the person posted about hearing a can of marbles when he hit the throttle (boost). The engine was toast in something like 50 miles. Fortunately he paid a shop to do the install and the shop goofed by forgetting to load the tune so the new motor was on them.

Still - failure by messing up the MBT... Any actual cases? How does getting it wrong manifest itself short term? Lower HP? What about long term? Any documented cases?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

To begin with could you post pictures of your plugs?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

I have been dyno tuning for 12 years. What I have found is that ''tuners'' are often just dyno operator. They are not that good at tuning even after many years. A lot of dyno operator can tune WOT pretty good but they lack in all the many engine table parameters that can make an engine reliable and or win races.

A dyno is truly the best way to find optimum advance since the conditions will be perfect to measure. When you don't have access to a dyno you are required to tune on the same day, same stretch of road, same wind condition and start each run at an exact same speed. Some guys also use an accelerometer to complement tuning.

That's how I started until I realised I could not get accurate enough. It was also very time consuming to reach a good tune. I know you spray a lot yourself so you could even have past MBT. If that is the case then expect the engine bearings and headgasket to be short lived just like FI_Rubicon...

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

............

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

More than likely the crank pulley bolt was improperly torqued to the right value or the bolt is the wrong type and or wrong steel used.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Definitely agree and appreciate your dedication and ability to tune outside of WOT.

Interestingly, nobody has called your experience or dyno tuning in general into question in this thread. If anything, I am asking you to back up your statements.

A race car absolutely belongs on a dyno. No question. At the same time, my street driven Jeep will probably live a full life without engine failure, even if it never sees a dyno and despite your naysaying. Even just slapping an aftermarket blower on a stock motor will increase stress to the head gasket and crank bearings.

You have my respect as someone who goes beyond being just a dyno (read: machine) operator. Myself, I was a fully certified and factory trained Mazda/Subaru tech. Worked on all of their first generation FI cars and I modded rotaries in the early days too. I also had a California smog license, which is difficult to attain and even once you get it you still need to know how to make a car run correctly and pass smog. I can also appreciate your path to seeking more HP and wisdom etc by getting a dyno. If I had a shop and a dyno, I'd be living on the thing with a laptop collecting and analyzing logs, tuning cars and eeking out every last bit.

Still.... it would be great to better understand what actual failures have occurred in the context of a street driven vehicle. Sure blowing a head gaskets or increasing bearing wear sounds great on paper and in theory. Maybe it can even happen on a race car. Where is the actual and factual data to back that up? The question is still out there.... How many engines have you personally seen fail as a result of getting MBT wrong with WI where it is not also accompanied by knock? Lots of folks are tuning by knock and you know it. While it may not be perfect, it does work for folks without a dyno. Where are the accompanying reports of folks killing their engines with WI/WMI where they tuned on knock? There really is not even any data out there to suggest just putting a blower on an otherwise stock NA motor will decrease engine life and there is lot of naysaying around that. Still no actual cases of failure or reduced engine life to back it up where some other factor cannot be identified as the cause.

It would also be interesting to understand why you feel that I am necessarily over-spraying and getting MBT so wildy wrong that I will incur engine damage.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Wow. Listen, I intervened to prevent people thinking it is normal to tune to knock with WI. Now, that does not mean we can not tune an engine as close to knock as possible. Like when the fuel has too low of an octane to support the cylinder combustion pressure leading to fuel auto ignition (knock).

Tuning to MBT (except for idle) should be the ultimate goal as it gets your engine a fuel efficient (torque) burner. I have seen a few engines blown using WI and guess what, all failures were a combination of not enough WI and TOO much timing. So these engines ran for a while before failing. These were not my tunes but I saw the maps afterwards.

Again, if you operate a 4 liter engine to 400 hp and then ask a 2L engine to crank 1200hp then guess what an excess of just say 5 degrees past MBT will do... It just won't last as long. You also lose power past MBT.

Can you tell us how much power the engine is producing?
What is the total WI volume you are spraying?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

The bolt is Toyota Oem although it was made for s 105bhp engine not 300bhp+

I torqued the bolt myself 4years ago never gave me trouble. I also used a decent locktite with threading

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Tripling the hp would not mean the bolts sees 3x the stress imposed on it. Normaly, the crankshaft pulley bolt sees abnormal stress when an imbalance occur between the pulley and crankshaft. Is the pulley vibration free when you look at it and rev the engine?

Also some drivers can be pretty hard when they force the engine acceleration rate to change abruptly. Like when upshifting, downshifting and releasing the clutch very fast.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

If you advance and you both get no knock and power rises in manner you feel it, your have not hit MBT.
If power stops rising in a way you feel it, but still no knock, stop advancing, even go back a tad. If you don't feel power rising, any extra power won't mater for street use or track days anyhow.

you won't get to MBT this way, but within a few %. So forget chasing the last 10HP on a 400 HP engine that is not knock limited (no knock before MBT) on the street.

Only on a dyno, best a engine or hub dyno, you can observe the function of advance vs. power/torque for any given rpm.

If you have a very good street dyno software, you may come close if you have a suitable flat and straight road without enforcement.


On the street unless there is no speed limit, you will not generate the heat you do on track.
So if you street map, but intend to hit a track, pull timing at higher intake air temps and bring a laptop to the track to correct if knock occurs.

PS I use a J&S safeguard knock control system with display. This helps a lot as it reacts very fast and reduces loads a lot shall the combustion go haywire.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Very well said rotrex. parmas, since you spray a lot of WM for the power produced, the engine will not knock past MBT. So be cautious about using knock detection to find MBT.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Unfortunately I do not have a knock control system. I tried to find one but never decided.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Flr Power, sorry for any sand kicking on my part. I was and still am not convinced that I am in a danger zone with my street drive Jeep.

Hopefully I am correctly jetted since I followed the Aquamist guidance.

And thanks for asking more about my system.

I am running a single Aquamist 1.2mm jet with 50/50. My target is more like 17% of fuel versus a full 20% and I have the extra 0.4mm-b jet to get me there.

I sized more based on injectors, which are GM/AC Delco injectors rated at 54 lbs per hour. I converted that 567cc/min and sized my 6 cyl. based on that.

Sizing based on HP, I target 1.375 to 1.5 times HP and came up with the same jet sizes. This kit is claimed by the vendor to put out 317rwhp, which is on par with other similar bolt on superchargers for this engine. It is also widely believed that Jeep Wranglers get a 33% drivetrain loss and this is also perpetuated by one of the more popular Jeep tuners out there which has dynoed may stock and FI jeeps.

I do appreciate any feedback on the sizing. Again, I use 1.2mm for 50/50 and a 0.9mm for pure water. I also have a 1.0mm for using with a mix somewhere in between that.

What do you make of the 11 year old posts in this thread? Numbers 54 through 57? It was a good read. Not sure if tuning methods have changed much since those posts. Comments?

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbu...p?t=436&page=6

In the above thread, it is mentioned that knock sensors may not even be working effectively if even at all at higher RPMs. In my case, the Jeep won't be going past ~5,700 RPM very often anyway when I am not pulling logs.

Edit: Also, FWIW, I did notice what I thought was increasing amounts of HP (butt dyno) until about 7 degrees of advance. In light of all this conversation, I backed off my advance by a degree back to 7 since I could not really feel any difference going past that point. No substitute for a real dyno pull.

Also the more I read about WI/WMI, the more that I find I do NOT know.

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

The best way to be sure you have the correct ignition advance is to use fast cylinder pressure transducers. The second best is a dynometer.

The ability for an engine to enter knock zone is pretty much directly linked to PCP (peak combustion pressure) after fuel is ignited which is also linked to the fuel octane you are using and the engine Compression Ratio. I am pretty sure you know all that...

So are you in a danger zone? Nobody knows unless properly tested. I think the sizing you are using will not let you maximise timing advance but that does not mean it is wrong. Some people use WM to get a bit more safe boost and or timing advance.

But if you are trying to maximise your set up by advancing to MBT then you would require a dyno or very good datalogging software and hardware with a very meticulous testing method. But even then you won't be able to control wind speed changes that will affect the readings. rotrex also wrote how to do it on the street...

I will agree with you though, when you have a relatively low specific output engine, if the engine does not knock, even if you have past MBT by a couple degrees on your setup, should not matter. lol
The cumulative damage will be slow...

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Engine pressure piezo transducers
https://www.avl.com/pressure-sensors...ine-indicating

You can build a spare forged engine with their price plus they tend to fail if detonation occur!

No thanks..

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

So how is max MBT figured?

Can someone please explain? I tried looking into it but best I could come up with was doing "ignition timing sweeps."

Is this where you do multiple dyno runs where you keep advancing the timing and watching the HP increase each time until it stops increasing?

I can see how this would be easier on an engine dyno versus a chassis dyno. Maybe Dynapack style?

Re: Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?
 

Yes, you start retarded and then increase timing until you find it reaches a plateau then for safety you can back it off 1-2 degrees. I tune on Dynapack but chassis dyno also works.

Keep in minds that sometimes depending on your fuel octane you may not be able to reach MBT without detonation.

MBT = Minimum best timing or Maximum brake torque.

So let's say for each 1 degree advance you pick up 10 hp on dyno. Eventually each degree given will not get you 10 hp so you will know you are getting close to MBT.