RX7 rotary power, meth or water?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

It's good to see people with rotaries understanding water injection is the only way to make true reliable power

Anyone in any doubts here is a thread (feel free to share and pass on) as to how well it works. Should be mandatory on all turbo rotaries

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...4063#post14063

^ 8000km of running at ~500bhp level over 80lt of WI used ........ that is (3+hours) at full power setting. And my original engine is like new. When rotaries at this level of power life span can be measured in seconds and minutes (at full power output) this WI just shows again why its the best technology man has ever engineered for the internal combustion engine

Hey Peter, thank for chiming in. There are still a great deal of people do not what water can do for making safe power. You have contributed a great deal already on this forum, keeping me up at soem nights.

Can you share some of the experiences on the effect of running 100% methanol instead of water. Most people on the RX7 club forum run pure methanol, do you think it is unnecessary where water or W50:M50 will do just as well? I am not familiar with rotaries.

Some one added the above in my post high lighted in bold.? I'll reply below.

100% Methanol is any inferior solution for the following reasons:

1> Increased knock.
2> Vastly Increased fluid usage to equal WI.
3> Quick fluid degradation over time.
4> Stress on system parts (corrosion, lack of lubrication, degrading all rubbers).
5> Tuning problems which greatly effect knock resistance.
6> QTY needed to equal majority WI mixtures or WI alone double to triple system weight!.
7> Excessive wash down of lubrication in engine.
8> FIRE hazard!
9> Narrow tuning window to stop knock far inferior to water or mixes of water
10> Totally not flexible (you have no meth then you are fucked!)! where as 50/50 W/M cars and and do run 100% water without any changes in tune or any set up changes! (the slightly leaner AFR setting is ideal for 100% water alone) so if your stuck somewhere no problem, just fill up on water can't do this on 100% Meth set up!
(WI or 50/50 WI cars can run and make power from 10.2:1 AFR to 13.9:1 AFR) try that on pure meth add on set up like Americans preach and your rotary will be out in favor of a V8 conversion )
Methanol Injection is rubbish, but add water to the equation and its something that works, has been proven for a hundred years, and it THE best all round solution, I say the only real solution that is flexible, reliable, and has little excuses associated with its long term application in the real world.

I can't say why American after market automotive people are not with technology as it was developed during the war? To me it is crazy and simply points to lack of knowledge, education, and pure skill.

WI on its own works well, 50/50 by mass mixes with Methanol work in ALL situations, will never freeze, makes excellent power, and counters ALL of the negatives of running methanol alone. It is the complete solution. You can leave the fluid in mixed state for over a year exposed to air and it will always be consistent! (Unlike Methanol) that will degrade quickly and cause untold problems. Mixing 50/50 by mass it undergoes an exothermic reaction and its make up is permanently altered and it is very stable and consistent, giving almost all the water only attributes while being kinder to making power on fixed variables like boost, timing etc, and its easier if your system parts are not up to spec (like ignition capacity).

Methanol is just a cheap alternative and ill thought out (as are ANY alcohol fuels IMHO > E85 included). Its simple cause its easier to fire, but its horrendous to system parts, varies daily, store it too long and you will have a blow up machine BDC style!

The absolute ideal is gasoline main fuel, water/methanol in 50/50 ratio and injected at 40% to 25% of main fuel flow *BY MASS!!!*, it will make power on all set ups, be consistent, not rape any parts be it in your injection system or your engine.

It's not hard, you just need to follow what Frank Walker and many other Mechanical Engineers have been quoted on since early last century. A war was won with their brains V's today's internet forum wars of nobodies............... I know who I would rather believe and follow

[Richard L]

For years, 100% Methanol has been very popular on the rotary scene. What about water only?

Pete of Rice Racing of Australia, known to many in the Rotary community as a leading expert on 100% water injection on rotary. His approach is based on true and extensive experiments with the real world results will pick up the story from here...

W50:M50 appeared to be a good compromise for all-season applications.

[RICE RACING]

Thanks Richard

It's hard to recall all of the stuff I have worked on over the years, but it has covered the fastest class cars in drag racing both rotary and piston, street cars, circuit cars, and all kinds of weird and wonderful things in between.

The topic of what mixtures work and why is very interesting, most of it is covering ground that has already been researched to death. However giving it modern context is always of interest to newbies. I'll try to give some input on direct applications if people are interested to know more.

I have one customer who is running Methanol 100% as base fuel and uses water injection pre turbo to give him an advantage over other competitors it is a sensitive area though and I have learned many people hang off every word I type and love to copy..... though I am happy to discuss and give information that is redundant in my world, and a few steps back from what is current best practice but is a new thing for most people looking into this technology, it is great to see many people getting more into this proven science of water injection... AND RIGHTLY SO! THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE THAT HAS PROVEN TO MAKE ENGINES AS POWERFUL AND DURABLE ALL THE SAME TIME.

[MaD^94Rx7]

Awesome stuff! Thanks for the time you take in writing all this. True inspiration for anyone that wants to learn.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by MaD^94Rx7

Awesome stuff! Thanks for the time you take in writing all this. True inspiration for anyone that wants to learn.

No problem, I hope that more people get inspired.

Sir Harry Ricardo would be proud to know his pioneering research or first documented findings on Water Injection has influenced so many great men and wonderful engines over time from the War to Formula one constructors titles WI has won them all

[buffrx7]

ok quick question rice i have a fd3s making 469hp on a mustang dyno i want to run only water just for safty purposes not to add more power the car is running the 10s in afr at full throttle...i have the kit installed right now but not currently using it nothing in tank....the question is should i just run water to have a safer engine and what injector do you think i should use the 130cc 315cc or the 550cc

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by buffrx7

ok quick question rice i have a fd3s making 469hp on a mustang dyno i want to run only water just for safty purposes not to add more power the car is running the 10s in afr at full throttle...i have the kit installed right now but not currently using it nothing in tank....the question is should i just run water to have a safer engine and what injector do you think i should use the 130cc 315cc or the 550cc

10's AFR if you do not want to retune the only jet I recommend you use is 130cc for an extra margin of safety. Any larger will result in too much power loss.

[RICE RACING]

Here is a good one to look at, 34 deg C ambient conditions and ultimate validation of this science as applied to the rotary engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u44_xU-rCkY

No need for many words, but here is the real 'live action' commentary from the owner for those interested as well > http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/S...II_Charles.htm

[Richard L]

One exciting moment. Very nice.

[dlheman]

Now that's fast~!!