Pre turbo + pre TB setup. No fmic? help needed.

[st165]

Hi everyone, i have done a lot of reading, especially the 41pages long post on pre turbo injection. So i know where i'm going so lets not start a new pre turbo injection debat ok? ;)

My car is 1987 celica gt-four, 2.0L turbo engine. I have an hiflow 57trim supra turbo (7mgte) which flows 49lbs/min. I plan on boosting around 22/25psi. Running on premium unleaded.

I will inject 100% water, with a 250psi pump. And a solenoid for each nozzle.

The ON/OFF of the pump as well as the two solenoid will be controlled by the emanage ultimate. Turning the pump ON at a certain psi/throttle and opening each solenoid at different psi.

I would like to know what nozzle size should i put pre TB and pre Turbo?

Also, i have a large FMIC at the moment, would it still be beneficial? or can i remove it :mrgreen: (i'd love to)

Thank you!
Cedric

[proz07]

keep the intercooler unless you go upwards of 75% meth though i wuldnt recomend removing it as your only cooling when injecting and intake temps will climb even out of boost also as the water just isnt going to remove enough heat it will a bit but not enough to dump the intercooler. it will have great anti detonation ability though with water only.

as far as size of nozzles it will depend on your fuel injectors whats your max cc/min and calculate it to be i think they recommend 10-15% for water then split it between your two nozzles. id probably run a small nozzle pre-turbo and then like 75% of your injectant pre TB as its said the intercooler can recondense the fluid and being all water youll get better use out of it in the cylinders anyway for anti detination.

z

[st165]

The AIT temp shouldn't go high enough to become an issue while cruising no??

I have a nice big cold air box as well.
And in traffic/cruising at low speed, the fmic would be useless anyway as it would get heat soaked quickly.

I am running 750cc's injectors @ 80% DC.

If i inject 20/25% of water compare to fuel, wouldn't the temp be cool enough to dump the fmic? the turbo will have to spool less also because of less pressure drop.

What about this:

- 4x 0.75gph nozzle pre turbo. two that comes on at ~2psi and the 2 other a bit higher.

- a 3gph and a 4gph pre TB. 3gph will come on a ~2psi a the second one higher.

The reason i want many nozzle pre turbo is for the thinner mist possible, and like this i can do a staggered setup. The first set of nozzle starts spraying when the pump turns ON, and the second set of nozzle will come on when the solenoid opens.

Each set is made of 2 pre turbo nozzles and 1 pre TB nozzle.

[proz07]

what kind of ignition setup are you running cause unless you have zeus in there firing off lightning bolts you may have a hard time ignition 25% straight water honestly. if you read in the pre turbo thread youll se rice went to 50/50 meth for breakup and testing.

but again 100% water WILL NOT cool enough for you to remove the intercooler its evap temp is too high now if you run a mix of meth/water you can run without the intercooler but the only guy i read that did it i believe was running 100% meth and actually added a smaller intercooler after testing and playing around for the cruise low boost temps. let me see if i can locate the thread on it.

z

[proz07]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=809559&highlight=intercooler

rather lengthy i know hell i havent even read it all i just remember him finding out it wasent gonna work in the upper boost levels toward 20psi and then reinstalled an intercooler although this is after blowing the motor....

so whats that extra microsecond os boost 'lag' worth to you i guess just run an intercooler and reap the benefits of both worlds.

z

[st165]

what kind of ignition setup are you running cause unless you have zeus in there firing off lightning bolts you may have a hard time ignition 25% straight water honestly.


haha :D

Stock ignition system. If i can ignite a rich 10:1 afr mixture at 20psi. It should be ok at 13:0 AFR with 25% water no and same boost no?

As well, half of it will be injected pre turbo, So it should be all evaporated before it reaches the TB. It will evaporate even quicker since there is no IC. I remember people saying they downgraded there fmic in order to have higher temperature to benefits more from the cooling of water/meth injection pre IC.

I have seen graphs where water injection pre turbo was making the fmic almost inefficient.

I really want to remove the fmic, my car is not a daily driver, it's stripped, no more P/S no more A/C, nothing lol. I want to try make things differently, even if the IAT end up a bit higher, it will be worth it in my opinion.

Less lag, less work for the turbo, less weight, cleaner engine bay, and the first 3sgte engine to run without IC :p

If the car bogs, or the IAT are really too high, i will switch to a mix with meth i guess.

what do you think?

Thanks for the inputs btw!

[st165]

thanks for the link, i really thought that i read all the webpages including the words water/injection/intercooler/pre turbo during the last two days lol

[proz07]

well there ya go just keep an eye on temps, knock yada yada but removing the intercooler youll most likely have WAY less pipping and not much 'time' for evap honestly. try it by all means but its been done before and unless its on meth it just dosent work.

z

[st165]

I'm gonna read this topic now, but just a few differences, he is not injecting pre turbo. (it is supposed to bring the compression close to isothermal) and also he is putting 470rwhp.

I'm only planning on 380awhp

[proz07]

true but it has to do with removing the intercooler and even with the pre-turbo i personally dont think itll be enough still but untill tested ya never know. i personally will still be running an intercooler along with pre-turbo, post int, and also direct runner/port for benefits of all and most likely a 50/50 mix water/meth by weight.

z

[st165]

Ok, to be safe i will get a IAT gauge, one that does sound alarm when the temp reach a threshold. And also a map in the emanage that will retard timing/dump more fuel if the IAT goes to high at wot. In the event of a WI failure.

I will see how it goes, but next year i'll switch to E85, and it should be more than enough without the fmic...

[1995gsx20g]

Maby im missing a key part here but i just do not understand the need for an ic during part throttle or cruising conditions.. What about N/A applications... should they run an ic?

Personally if i were planning to run both pre-turbo and pre-TB then i would make sure the turbo has no "water" coming out of it and just inject again pre-TB. Also i have been playing with the idea(in my head of course) of running two complete systems, pre-turbo with 100% water and pre-TB a 50/50 mix. or somthing along those lines just to do a little R&D on what really works where.