Smart injection

[Kapt. Q]

Hello,
I'm very interested in installing an Aquamist3 system on my Smart fortwo using a 50/50 mix. I am having a hard time determining my injector sizes and therefore nozzle size. The figures I've found about my injectors(148cc/min) do not seem to be credible when compared to an injector size calculator which suggests a flow rate of around 280cc/min per injector would be required for my engine to work as it does.

The 698cc engine currently runs a revised intake, filter, plumbing, bigger turbo and motorsport type exhaust and remap. Peak torque is generated at around 3500 and maximum hp is dynoed at around 97hp at 6200rpm. 3.8bar fuel regulator, Maximum boost is 1.49bar. The car is OBD II
The car has a small intercooler stuffed in above the engine that relies on a small scoop and fan. It is possible to hit manifold air temps of 70C in a very short time, heat soak is a big problem.

Ideally I would like to experiment with pre turbo injection with an eye to perhaps doing away with the intercooler altogether? The problem this presents is the tiny size of the turbo and being able to position a nozzle close within the tapered TIK without it being a huge obstruction; I have seen a beautiful picture on this forum of a subminature injector posted by Richard L.

Perhaps I would be better off using a two jet system as evaporating everything pre turbo may be problematic, that is if I can get nozzles small enough for my meager engine?
Using one post intercooler and one pre turbo but about a foot away from the turbo (some blade erossion is not a big issue as they can be changed for a lot less than the big boy's ones, lol.

The goal is for a full time on boost system with fail safe and mapping and hopefully to rebuild the engine with greater compression and improved components to take maximum advantage of the injection after a more complete understanding of it has been gained.


Any help welcome, please bear in mind I'm not a rocket scientist like some of you but learn quickly.

Cheers!

Lucian

[Kapt. Q]

Here's some photos of the ducting and intercooler.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/1cd3549f3d8648d590f9b9eb49d017a5.jpg
Here's the intercooler with stock ducting (replaced with silicone on mine)



http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/intercooler_for_MCC_SMART.jpg
The intercooler has plastic tanks so perhaps a nozzle could be tapped into the outlet pipe. The mounting means that any condensate would collect in the plastic part of the intercooler.



http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/ansaugrohr-2-52773.jpg
Here is the Stock TIK compared to the silicone one, the large end connects to a 90 degree bend into the filter, perhaps the best place for pre turbo injection?




http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/3767381103_759f3b8e0b.jpg
Throttle body and top of intercooler, you can only see it's fan. Forge intercooler pipes. You can also just see the blue 'TIK' below and where it connects to the airbox on the left.



http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/3767387533_c0d695b28c.jpg
TIK connection with turbo. You can also see the first intercooler pipe exiting the turbo.


Not my car, but the blue hoses show up better than black ones, you can see how tight everything is and how the intercooler is not in a good location. some people put a larger intercooler in but I think it is just buying time before heat soak at the cost of lag because there is not enough airflow to cool the one it's got let alone a bigger one.

Some turbo specs,
The induction side:
Inlet 27mm inside bore, 32mm outside diameter.
Outlet 21mm inside bore, 27mm outside diameter.

Exhaust outlet Id. 40.5mm


Cheers!

Lucian

[Kapt. Q]

The 50kg's of go, 2hp for every kilo in my case!

Stock

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/imagesCAC5I7N4.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/1351788219_451722475_2-Pictures-of--SmartFortwo-Engine-ServiceRe-Building.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/3992jb_20.jpg

In the last one you can see some of the air ducting for the intercooler, bear in mind this is crammed in against the firewall.

[Richard L]

Lucian,

Good grief, a lot of hard work. Very cute engine (size wise). I will make a more detail stody of this later. Thanks for posting.

[Kapt. Q]

Cheers Richard, great talking to you, really looking forward to this project.

I think I may also require a MAC valve to realise the failsafe.

Lucian

[Richard L]

Is your boost controller is a mechanical type?

[Kapt. Q]

It does have a boost solenoid.

Here's a link to a page on the setup of it, this site is the best online source for Smart info.

http://www.evilution.co.uk/580

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Here's some pictures of my tiny turbo, a mini Garrett, as you can see the manifold is integral to the turbine housing and it has a fast warm up channel for the cat.
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/727211-5001Shh.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/727211-5001S.jpg

This is actually the mid range tubo for the early Smart range, some high spec Brabus used one of the same dimensions externally but with ceramic coatings on some surfaces and internal differencesalong with a watercooled chargecooler, the lower spec version has a smaller induction inlet and compressor and smaller exhaust outlet.

[Richard L]

Like to take it one step at a time. On the picture showing the air filter. I am a bit confused, there are several blue hoses there. Should I be looking at the hose with "FORGE" logo? To the right hand side, what is that assembly?

[Kapt. Q]

I dont have a picture with the airfilter?
The long blue 'forge' tapered hose with the three little ports is the TIK, it replaces the black plastic one in the picture, the items that have been colourised are related to the wastegate and breathers.

The two intercooler pipes in some of the pictures have also been replaced with blue forge pipes too.

I'll get a picture of the airbox and the 90 degree bend.
Cheers!

[Richard L]

TIK? sorry, not familiar with this term.

Richard

[Kapt. Q]

Sorry, it is a Smart term for their relatively straight, long and tapered intake pipe between the air filter and turbo inlet, designed for some ram/velocity effect I suppose? Smart made a 45kw, 61kw and 74kw versions of this pipe for the three different versions of the engine, each one having a slightly different turbo. The Forge TIK is generally considered to be equal or better than the stock 74kw version as it has fewer bends with smoother radiuses and is straighter, it does suffer a slight step at the inlet that the stock one does not.

[Kapt. Q]

My engine started as a 45kw (61hp) model, these were prone to premature faliure, believed to be caused by the lack of an oil cooler, use of inferior oils (fully synthetic is a must), oil change intervals that were too long, piston design (possibly), high gears that are way too high in ratio and result in serious lugging by poor drivers and also harsh city use.
Mine has had a thermostatic oil cooler added.

Smart had oil coolers, shorter service intervals, Shorter top gear ratios and possibly different pistons in the higer spec engines (Brabus & Roadster) and these were not so prone to faliure despite making 20-40hp more! 33-66% more hp!!!

[Richard L]

The power level increase from 45, 61 and 74kw, are they being offered by the factory?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, yes that is correct, the 74kw version was 'Brabus' only and had sodium filled valves and water cooled charge cooler, improved turbo with different wastegate actuator, bigger injectors, exhaust and TIK and different cam and map.
These engines have been tuned to 120hp, but then they are very stressed at 171hp per liter!!! (The stronger wastegate allows overboosting beyond 1.5bar).

Interestingly the (Suprex) engine was an offshoot of Smarts abandoned Hybrid program and the brains behind it (Swiss Auto) have since developed a successful hybrid powerplant along these lines.

[Richard L]

Thanks for the run down on options.

Just going back to your project, how far are you going to push yours up to? Please remind me the power level you have achieved up to now.

[Kapt. Q]

My car has been uprated to 97hp at 6200, Overboost is 1.49bar. It has a very flat torque curve over it's peak at about 3500rpm.

It will be dyno tuned by a tuner who uses methanol and water himself (he had nothing but good things to say about Aquamist, his first question was what I was doing about a failsafe, so that's a good sign ;)). So I'll be able to post some figures here, before and after, etc.


Primarily at this point I'm interested in controlling my intake temps, as an example today with an ambient temp of 1C my MAT was about 20C very light cruising and then 40C with less than a minute of medium ragging!

I'd like to see what effect addressing this and also leaning out the mixture under boost will have and if anything can be gained while not stressing it much more than it was without injection, it'll be interesting to see what can be done with the timing.

The goal is a full time on boost system at the moment, but in the future depending on the results of this experiment, I'm thinking of rebuilding it with higher compression and better rods, pistons,etc, in order to best use the anti knock properties in a full time system strong enough to allow further developments.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Ps. I think that I may have issues with my spark strength, time will tell and there are off the shelf solutions available should it arise. It is a three coil Six sparkplug setup, with simultaneous spark for both plugs in each cylinder.

[Kapt. Q]

I could use some help regarding where I should put my methanol/water tank.

I would ideally like to use a 4+liter container, however this will not be possible outside the cockpit (the windshield washer tank is in the front and the engine in the back).


Would it be best to use a racing type fuel cell with external venting?
I will not be using more than a 50/50 mix.
Will this present plumbing/fitting problems?

Cheers!

[Richard L]

My car has been uprated to 97hp at 6200, Overboost is 1.49bar. It has a very flat torque curve over it's peak at about 3500rpm.

It will be dyno tuned by a tuner who uses methanol and water himself (he had nothing but good things to say about Aquamist, his first question was what I was doing about a failsafe, so that's a good sign ;)). So I'll be able to post some figures here, before and after, etc.


Primarily at this point I'm interested in controlling my intake temps, as an example today with an ambient temp of 1C my MAT was about 20C very light cruising and then 40C with less than a minute of medium ragging!

I'd like to see what effect addressing this and also leaning out the mixture under boost will have and if anything can be gained while not stressing it much more than it was without injection, it'll be interesting to see what can be done with the timing.

The goal is a full time on boost system at the moment, but in the future depending on the results of this experiment, I'm thinking of rebuilding it with higher compression and better rods, pistons,etc, in order to best use the anti knock properties in a full time system strong enough to allow further developments.

Cheers!

Got some time today to work on your system, jury duty was finished for me yesterday.

1. Building a low flow valve and bench test.
2. Changing Flow sensor turbine profile to suit low flow.
3. Reflash controller for a lower flow table.

All went well considering our system normally flow 5-10 times as much. The rest of the system are ready but had to leave early due to snow storm. So it will have it be next week for shipping.


Anyway. Failsafe is standard with the system. Can you tell me what kind of boost controller is used, mechanical or electronic?

My first target is to lower your temperature rise on load. You may need more water/methanol than we first calculated. The recommended ratio is for less harsh operating condition than yours. Rapid temperature rise as described by our phone conversation indicated you have highly stressed engine.

We shall see how WI performs, will be very interesting. If you have spark blown out problem you can increase methanol concentration.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, that's excellent news, very exciting. It seems like such a good candidate for injection. Really impressed by your tailoring things special for the micro motor. I will get as much before and after data from the tuner as possible.

I know of a Scandinavian who has raised the compression in one of these engines (took .5mm out of a possible 2mm off block with no valve interference) in order to experiment with E85 and the economy aspects of it. He had problems with the spark, this has also been problematic with some brave/foolish(?) enough to venture in to NOS (never heard of it working for long in a Smart, lol).

No hurry on the shipping, still got to get a tank, methanol, etc, and we are snowed under too!

Cheers again!

[Richard L]

I must admit this is by far the more challenging customisation I have done over the years. making the system more flow twice as much is much easier. I am looking forward to see how well the system performs.

There are two things that affects the sparks. High cylinder pressure and flash point of the fuel. In cold weather, E85 could be a real pain especially the compression ratio is raised.

It is less of a problem in your case as you only need to introduce spray when the engine is under load and cylinder temperature is quite hot. Can you adjust your spark gap? If so, you can run higher wmi ratio, allowing more cooling for power increase.

[Dust]

How low are you thinking here Richard on flow? Would dropping pump pressure be easier?

[Richard L]

Dropping pressure will reduce flow for sure.

My problem is detecting the low flow with the same turbine designed for detecting flow in excess of 2 litres per minute.

Turbine mass (inertia) and bearing friction will affect linearity at low flow. We do have other turbines with different geometries for low flow applications.

[Dust]

You obviously know why I am subscribing, hoping to see what you come up with.

[Richard L]

If there is greater demand for low flow injection systems, we will scale down the flow sensor components. Problem is, low flow system may not require flow sensor based failsafe.

I have not forgotten the diesel systems.

[Dust]

I agree, and I don't really have a way to really use it for the setup I am looking at.

[Richard L]

The smart project car gives me an opportunity to evaluate the performance of the system under the low-flow conditions.

At the same time, it is interesting to know much water is required for this this highly stressed engine. I have learnt how fast the oil temperature rise under medium load.

[Kapt. Q]

How does size effect efficiency generally if at all?

Are smaller engines more or less efficient?

I made a motorway journey yesterday, the Ambient temp was 0C, I travelled in 6th gear at 3500rpm, boost .8-9bar (1.5 possible), for several miles. MAT was a constant 38C even with this medium load and an intercooler scoop picking up 0C air at speed.


The car still performs so much better right now than in the summer when it is completely overwhelmed even with our low summer temps!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

If you can push up more power per litre, you will be on a winning path but you are limited by fuel octane. Higher octane will enable you to run higher compression ratio hence higher incylinder temperature and pressure.

Water/methanol injection will enable you to cross that octane barrier. Water reduces incylinder temperature during evaporation as well as regulating the frame speed, reducing the chance of knock. Superheated steam will also raise the cylinder pressure resulting in significant torque increase. Addition of methanol aids inlet cooling as well as lifting the octane of pump fuel.

Your highly stressed engine is well suited for this, hence I am taking a special interest on this.

[Kapt. Q]

It is very exciting as I know of no other car with it and I've seen a lot of Smarts, and if it has been done I doubt it has been done properly!

As you say it seems the perfect candidate.

There is a fanatical Smart Roadster community out there and if it works out it may well generate some interest and also with the serious fortwo modders. (I have a Roadster too but I prefer the little fortwo, 100kg lighter, lol).

The car will be going to Smart Times in Switzerland this year, as it went to the one in Antwerp last year, over 1140 were in the parade, lol.

I have seen some intrest on a forum in injection for the very similar 800ccTDI they made.

I have ordered a Brabus 101 wastegate acctuator, it has a stronger spring and allows overboosting beyond 1.5bar (with ECU adjustments). Once things are dialed in with the injection it will be interesting to see what is possible without stressing it much more.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

I have done a lot of searching for a suitable tank which must be located in the cabin.

Ideally I'd like about 6-8l min capacity because we travel quite a bit.

I also I require a place for the pump next to the tank and then a place for the relay, the location it will go requires that it be somewhat protected, but still allow me to monitor the levels.

The only all in one solution I have found is the Howerton Engineering 2x1 gallon tank and pump enclosure with led and fan, it also comes with a lot of style ;).

Can I order this from you Richard or do I order it direct from them?

Cheers!

[Richard L]

You need to order the tanks direct from Jeff. It is simpler.

[Richard L]

Can you explain how do you control boost pressure.

It will be fun to get this car fully integrated with aquamist.

[Kapt. Q]

Here's a link for a diagram of the engine setup regarding turbo and wastegate, etc:

http://www.evilution.co.uk/145

As you can see a boost control solenoid is operated by the ECU, which is also capable of a safe mode if it detects overboosts beyond a programable level or some other engine fault like a misfire, etc..

To boost above 1.5bar the actuator must be changed too.

Here's a link with more detail of the wastgate control plumbing:

http://www.evilution.co.uk/580

two lambda sensors are used, one in the turbine housing and one post cat.

[Richard L]

OK, got the answer. Boost a electronically controlled by the ECU via a BCV. Sorry for keep asking the same question
.

Question: How you you alter the boost pressure? I like to know this so I can advise you how to reduce boost in the event of a failsafe activation.

[Kapt. Q]

I think that the boost pressure is changed by reprograming of the ECU and perhaps an adjustment of the actuator depending how big the change is from stock.
It is using stock OBDII and it is not adjustable 'on the fly' but must be done with a laptop.

I suppose it's failsafe is some sort of map switch or modulation but I have little idea how to trigger that.

[Dust]

Your highly stressed engine is well suited for this, hence I am taking a special interest on this.

It?s why I used water-meth on my 660cc turbocharged Kei-car

At the same time, it is interesting to know much water is required for this this highly stressed engine.
May not be how much is ?required?, but I used up to 2 gph on the 660cc engine at 2psi without a noticeable drop in power

If there is greater demand for low flow injection systems, we will scale down the flow sensor components. Problem is, low flow system may not require flow sensor based failsafe.

I honestly think for mine at least, an HFS2v2 would be ample. If the user is trying to expand the range of using the kit, say from 10% TPS to 100% TPS, when does the failsafe need to be active? I am sure that 20% throttle won?t damage the car if .25 gph isn?t flowing.

It is very exciting as I know of no other car with it and I've seen a lot of Smarts, and if it has been done I doubt it has been done properly!


An install was started but never finished on a diesel here

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/diesel-engines/1427-smart-fortwo-cdi-800-cc-turbo-diesel.html

Might not hurt to try to contact the owner to see if he/she had any ideas about tank etc.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Dust,

Good link, he was going to use the washer bottle, but it is not suitable as it is in the front. Space is a big issue, but if I mount something like the Howerton set up in the rear luggage area it will be within about 1 foot of the two injection points, significantly simplifying plumbing.

The system Richard is putting together has two nozzles, pre turbo and post intercooler. I think he is aiming to have greater capacity than 20% of fuel flow possible, to allow for some experimenting with mix, etc.

I think they have strict emissions in Japan that would make this project a non starter there?

I have had many cars in the past, including Porsches, VW, Jeep SRT-8, Mitsubishi, etc, but few have made me smile so much as this one and the challenge of getting more out of less is perhaps more rewarding than making a big motor go quickly and quite relevant in these 'green' times, lol.

Cheers!

[Dust]

I think they have strict emissions in Japan that would make this project a non starter there?

400 yen for a liter of methanol and no cheap distilled water at all is why it would be a non-starter. I passed inspection twice with the nozzle uninstalled, once at the government run testing center, and one at a private testing center. The second said nothing about my HID headlights either.

If I have to move back here we WILL be installing an aquamist something on a direct injection diesel, or direct injection kei-car. I'd already have a diesel smart if they were available in Japan. I have an HSV, FAV, fittings, and about 10 nozzles, and don't even have my kit yet.

[Kapt. Q]

The injectors are rated at 148cc/min at 3.0bar.


Here's a link too the three injector types Smart used:

http://www.evilution.co.uk/639

[Richard L]

You are very resourceful, great links.

I have shipped the system to you yesterday, should get it sometime today. I like to move on to the next stage. Do you have a link to the ECU pin out for me to make a wiring diagram?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, you are very quick! I sent you a PM at the same time you posted this, lol!

Very impressive service!

I will get you a link asap!

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

http://www.evilution.co.uk/253

Mine is the 700cc one

All credit must go to Eviloution, the brains behind the website I have linked to many times, a pioneer in Smart modding and assembling all the information Smart never released to the public that makes it easier to work on them, there is still no publicly available workshop manual for them. His site is an international Bible in the Smart world.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, it has arrived like you said it would.

I take it I will be using two secondary injectors post intercooler?

I'll post pictures of installation as i go along to make sure you think it is optimum.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

One pre- and one post-. I just send you a spare one when higher flow is needed.

I am sure you will make a nice job of it. Keep me updated.

[Dust]

Keep me updated as well :). If I ever have to move back to Japan, a smart is high on the list.

[Kapt. Q]

I will definitely keep you all posted!

Progress is steady, a location has been chosen for all parts except the pump and tank, but I may have an idea for those.

My problem is that you need access to the complete floor of the rear luggage area because this is where the engine access hatch is. I think that I will have to attatch the pump and tank to the pickup truck style tail gate that it has, so when you open it the tank and pump come with it, swinging out of the way of the engine hatch. This will probably require a custom tank because of filler neck position, or at least a check valve on the vented cap? I also would like it quite resilient in case of a rear end shunt.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/smartboot_lead.jpg
(not my car, but good picture of luggage area and hatch, engine is under carpet in back!)

This then causes other problems like mounting the sensor and pick up on the rear of the tank which will require a litle surgery on the internal plastic tailgate panel.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/imagesCAQEN4VX.jpg


Richard, Any progress on the failsafe wiring diagram? Do you need any more info? It is the one part of the installation I am not confident about because my knowledge in the field is limited, and so am truly grateful for all the help.

I should have some progress pictures shortly of the 'Angry Midget', lol

Cheers!

Ps. Disassembly of a stock intercooler has shown serious restrictions within the outlet arrangement making me more eager than ever to see if perhaps we can bin it altogether.

I am thinking of trying it with and without intercooler with the injection on the dyno. This would mean fabricating a new intake between the turbo and TB but then I could locate the primary post turbo jet closer to the turbo for improved charge cooling and perhaps add a third smaller jet closer to the throttle body?


If it turns out that it is not possible to do all the charge cooling without the intercooler then I will certainly replace it with one that does not have the restrictions.

[Richard L]

I will do it this weekend. Things are a bit busy here, all good.

Richard

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, no pressure, the tank fabrication will take a little while anyway, I'm just eager!

Most of the details have been worked out regarding the tank as above but rear mounting the filter outlet and level switch is problematic because of the crash bars within the tailgate (great for the mounting though), perhaps it is not needed if we put a 'sump' in the tank and some baffles???

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The level sensor is useful for not allowing the water drop below certain level, prevent air entering the system. Real pain to get it out again. (purging required).

Here is a quick drawing for the system wiring. since I don,;t know the specific ECU pin layout, I just use a box to represent the ECU.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/Smart/Smart.gif

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,
That's fantastic, I should be able to follow that without trouble. The service and attention to detail you provide is something truly rare these days and I'm very much obliged!

I think my last post was a bit confusing when I read it back; I don't want to get rid of the tank sensor, I'm just wondering if it would be ok to put it in the side of the tank rather than the back?

I've been reading a lot of stuff on fitting tanks etc, and I have had many laughs at people complaining about space issues in their 1.5+ ton cars, lol! (mine is 720kg)

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The more time I spend now will save more time in the future.

I have changed the wiring a bit. The red wire of the grey harness will now go to the (+) of the fuel injector, making the distribution of the wires a bit simpler.

The tank level sensor can be put anywhere. Putting it in the back stops the "low level" from triggering during acceleration when the tank is low. The system will not trigger the failsafe if the "low level" trigger is only intermittent. However, it will trigger if the sensor is reading low for 20 seconds.

Look for a tall and thin tank if possible so sloshing is minimised. It also takes less space so you can pack your tooth brush in on long trips.

[Dust]

so you can pack your tooth brush in on long trips.

Funny man:p

[Kapt. Q]

Lol, the great thing is it forces you (or the Mrs ;) ) to travel light!

The tank design has been finalised, it will be stainless steel and vented externally.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/Untitleddifff.jpg

The sump on the side should help prevent surging. I'll put a fan in the enclosure, thanks to Howerton engineering for the inspiration there.
There will be a cover for the pump compartment.

All it's missing is a big Aquamist sticker ;)

Should be ready in a few days.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

which is the back facing side?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

You are mainly looking at the front facing side and the thinner passenger side in the picture, the back of the larger side (not completely visible in pic, only in back of pump compartment) is facing the rear of the vehicle. The bottom hole in the sump is the outlet, the hole above (100mm) is the level sensor. There is one baffle in the center of the main tank too that is not visible. I am hoping that with the level sensor being 125mm (approx) above the tank bottom, failsafe will activate before air ever enters system.
Overal dimensions are 465H x 325W x 122D. The pump enclosure section is 265H x 225W x 122D. Usable capacity is approx 9 liters before failsafe (leaving about 1.2L in the tank), should be enough for trips to Europe but there's always vodka if we run out!

Cheers!

Lucian

[Kapt. Q]

The back of the pump compartment is attatched to the inside of the tail gate, the tank part projects above the tailgate and would be visible from outside through the upper glass hatch if the glass was not heavily tinted ;). The whole arrangement will fold back when the lower tailgate is opened allowing easy filling and engine access.

So if you were outside the car and opened the lower tailgate the tank will swing down towards you and end up laying down with the cover for the pump enclosure facing up.

Hope that's at least vaugely clear, lol!

[Richard L]

Looks good so far. I am looking forward to the real thing. You are doing welding?

Tank sticker enroute.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,
I wish I had the equipment and practice! I did a lot of welding many years ago when I trained in diesel, hydraulic and general plant, and enjoyed the magic of making two things one but now leave it to the pros for better results, lol.
I did the design work though.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

A thought came to me when working on this tank that went back to building R/C airplanes in my youth; has anyone ever used a 'clunk' (weighted and sometimes filtered pickup on a flexible silicone pipe) in their tank? could go a long way to minimizing surge in a sub optimal tank set-up, particularly if the outlet is in the front facing part of the tank (optimum for a clunk).

[Richard L]

I can see this idea will work really well. I have not seen this one before. I will google and see the availability.

[Kapt. Q]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fuel+tank+clunk&hl=en&tbo=u&rlz=1R2SKPT_enGB430&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=-hAHUaeEIMSs0QW194GACw&sqi=2&ved=0CIABELAE&biw=996&bih=572

[Howerton Engineering]

I have seen this done on some less than optimally designed tanks.

The people in the Karting community use them a lot over here because they want low flat tanks for a low CG.

I think it would work well to a point. The problem is many people use it as a crutch for a bad tank design, then still get air into the system.

Your tank looks good. Can't wait to see the final product.

[Dust]

I considered doing it, but the problem I see would be keeping the hose from kinking or wearing. I was looking at a fish tank aerator with some washers attached at the top. Fortunately, I found a 4L washer tank that had a handle that shrunk the tank, then a flare out with a nice flat part for tapping.

[Richard L]

Silicon hose is very flexible and resilient to cracking. There is a problem of swelling due to high absorption rate, both with water and methanol. Use clamping type fitting so both id and od are secured properly.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, the sticker came, thanks a lot, it's the perfect size too.
Sadly the tank will not be ready until next week ):

A new less restricted intercooler should arrive today (the volume is not much greater). I hope to test with this and the stock one as well as no intercooler with the injection. I'm working on the revised plumbing for the no intercooler test.

I have aquired an extra dash clock pod to fit the gauge into so I can keep the stock look(stealth).

I'll get some pictures up over the weekend.

Cheers!

Lucian

[Richard L]

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the pictures.

[Kapt. Q]

As promised here are some pics! I have only installed the guage so far, the rest should happen this week if the tank is ready, lol!

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/DSCF1456_zpsa6a56539.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/DSCF1447_zps0f056c39.jpg
In this picture you can see the improved intercooler and larger throttle body, the difference in top end power and turbo spool time with these mods is amazing, although the 1.2 Vauxhaul Corsa throttle body is perhaps too large (working on a solution), and causes idle issues.
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/DSCF1451_zps25a02318.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/DSCF1450_zps8cc3167f.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/DSCF1454_zpsc8366916.jpg

In this last series you can see the restrictions in the stock intercooler inlet and outlet (well below the diameter of the turbo outlet).

Cheers!

Lucian

[Richard L]

Nice pictures, veay neat where you put the gauge.

It is interest to see the restriction in built on the intercooler. What is the actual cross section area? The WRC cars has 32mm restrictor making 300bhp.

The installation is coming along great. Please keep up with the pictures.This is by far the most interesting project.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

the gauge was not easy because of the cable and it's plug as well as the depth of it but it came out ok. Normal Smarts only have two pods. The pod on the left has been converted for an 'x-guage' which allows realtime monitoring of all engine parameters including MAT, MAP, ignition advance, etc.

The restrictions in the intercooler seem to be compromises due to space, you should see the dent they put in a stock down pipe for connector bolt clearance!

I am having fun learning more about the workings of the induction and the relationships between the parts.

Itching to get it up and running!

Cheers!

[Dust]

Kapt. Q, is there a FAQ or an intro page or anything so I can learn about the does and don'ts, first mods, problems etc?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Dust,
Here's a link to eviloution, the most info in one place, as with anything there are errors but it's brilliant none the less, (The guy who did the site, Kane, has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about Smarts, lol:
http://www.evilution.co.uk/

There is also this one that is good too,

http://www.fq101.co.uk/

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

A question if I may:

This intercooler is almost the same as mine, the end tanks are identical.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/enlarcoller3g_zps80c8e2dd.jpg

The left side is the outlet.

Where do I put the injector?

A). In the outlet pipe

B). In the end tank opposite the outlet so that it sprays directly into the pipe from behind.

C). None of the above, put it in the silicone pipe between the cooler and the throttlebody

The distance between the end of the intercooler outlet and TB is less than 300mm

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The best place is at "A" or the end tank face. Spraying against the air flow (the face that can be seen from the picture).

300mm is better than 30mm.

It must be close to completion?

[Dust]

So richard, your end tank face would be about where the crack in the cement connects with the IC, correct?

[Richard L]

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/smart car.jpg

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,
Thanks for the answer, will do. The tank is finished and I will be completeing the install over the next few days.Should have some pics too.
Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Hello, progress has been made, sorry about the pics, will take some better ones in the light:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0020_zpsd7a66256.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0025_zpsff4a7356.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0026_zpsec9938d7.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0028_zps03efbeff.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0042_zps0800ad7e.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0036_zps89b05d03.jpg

I have done all the wiring except the ECU, saving the best untill last, lol.

Is there any problem with mounting the FAV inside the vehicle?

My engine bay gets very very hot, it is stuffed full of electronics (intercooler fan, CAT preheat pump, ECU, etc) there is very little room and no 'perfect' spot.

However I have plenty of room for it with no electronics behind a plastic panel next to the tank (pass side quarter) It is cool, ventilated and 40cm from the injectors at most. Follow the nylon pipe in the last pic and you will see where it is mounted.

Loving this project!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

You are a clever man! Very nice tank.

The FAV can work at quite high temperatures. If you can keep the distance between the FAV and jets at a minimum, it should OK.

How much hose is needed for the run?

I noticed the fan, are you wiring it with the pump?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, I'm not clever, but I have the help of clever people! I did have to spend a lot of time polishing it though, lol.

The run to the injectors from the valve will be about 30-40cm for pre turbo and 40-50cm for post IC.

The fan is wired to the pump so it only runs with it. It has a seperate fuse and is adjustable.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The distance is fine.

Can't wait for the system in action.

[Kapt. Q]

I have secured a Brabus 101PS turbo for the project that is capable of over the 130hp that the regular Garrett G12 is rated for. It uses ceramic coatings to reduce heat transfer.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

This project is getting more and more serious. What bhp/ton will your car be at 101PS?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, I am already running about 101PS now, perhaps a little more, this is on the middle range 'Roadster' turbo (stock 80hp) that is good to about 110hp, The 101 Turbo allows me to potentially get more when tuned (130+) because it boosts higher and it's wastgate has a stiffer spring.
Right now it is about 135hp per ton. If we can get 130hp that would about 180hp per ton.

Today we hooked up the ECU and we think it went well, we will test that tomorrow!

There were three wires to the MAP sensor and hopefully we got the right one, lol, we started engine and chose the wire that had varying voltage with throttle being applied.

The Boost control solenoid was cut and spliced in, here again it had two wires and we did not think it mattered which one??


The car still boosts with the wire cut, but only to 0.5bar, I need to look into this as I don't think it should even do this, The ECU is monitoring the cuircit and after a little while throws the trouble code P0244 which relates to the values being out of range, ie it's open cuircit/shorted or signal out of range.
Funnily it did boost in first gear and second once or twice???? (WI is turned off).

What do you think???

Injector hook up was easy.

Nozzle carriers are both installed and awaiting nozzles (after purging, etc.).

So, more progress tomorrow, hopefully even up and running less tunning.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

1. At idle, the right one will read ~1.8-2V.

2. You need to cut the wire that pulses. The other one is +12V supply.
After you have cut the "pulsed" wire. white goes to the ECU side and brown goes to the BCV.

3. When the wire is cut, the boost should go down to the wastegate setting. Does it sound about right?

4. If the engine ECU throws a code, you can link up the "DR1" jumper link. This brings in the dummy resistor. If it does not work, you have probably wired up the BCV splice incorrectly.

Continue to update.

[M-W-I system]

Good work looking good:)

[Kapt. Q]

Thank you M W I system.

Hi Richard,
I thought when things weren't right with the BCV still boosting, limp home mode is usually weaker, right now with half a bar boost it is still quite peppy untill the RPM picks up. I thought that perhaps I should try the other wire :o, I will check the voltages/pulsing as you say. In my youth a solenoid was just a coil of wire that was energised or not and cycling was something done on a bike!!! The sophistication of even basic cars today is astounding and makes me feel old. I can still remember when CIS was cutting edge, miss that Mk1 Sirrocco, lol.

So glad for the help.

I'll post more tomorrow and some pictures.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

If the BCV has a plug, it will be much easier. Here is how:

Unplug the BCV. ignition on, one of the wire will be 12v and the other near nothing. The pulse wire will be the "0v" one. Do not use the DR1 until yuou have sorted thje wiring out first.

What is the standard boost?

But the BCV is unplugged, you should run wastegate pressure. Let me know what the boost is when you unplug the BCV.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Yes it has a plug, I will check now to see what a deactivated BCV allows the engine to boost at and compare, if it is different, I'll make sure that the wire I used from the BCVis the pulsing one.

I notice that all kit components are of the highest quality, even the wire, rare to buy things these days and not find 'made in China labels' everywhere!

Here's a picture of the work yesterday. Things are tight, just to remove the airbox for injector placement required removing undertray and loosening rear subframe allowing it and the engine to drop quite a bit for clearence.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0048_zps0de26537.jpg

Thanks again.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Standard boost on the 700 fortwo is 1bar, and 1.3bar on the sportier 700cc roadster. Earlier 600cc fortwos ran higher boost, but I am not sure exactly how much, it may have been 1.5bar, I think that compared to most other types of turbo cars as delivered by the factory this is very high.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

It appears the boost did drop down to 0.5 bar when the BCV wire is cut. It is just a matter of finding correct wire so the engine will not throw a code during failsafe activation period.

Once this is wired up properly, you can use the dash gauge button as a boost controller.

[Richard L]

Wow, space is indeed a premium. I am amazed how well this car is designed. I have seem several copy cats in Italy. I try to find them and post it up.



Hi Richard,

Yes it has a plug, I will check now to see what a deactivated BCV allows the engine to boost at and compare, if it is different, I'll make sure that the wire I used from the BCVis the pulsing one.

I notice that all kit components are of the highest quality, even the wire, rare to buy things these days and not find 'made in China labels' everywhere!

Here's a picture of the work yesterday. Things are tight, just to remove the airbox for injector placement required removing undertray and loosening rear subframe allowing it and the engine to drop quite a bit for clearence.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0048_zps0de26537.jpg

Thanks again.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Here they are, in Florence.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/microcar1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/microcar2.jpg

[Kapt. Q]

Lol, those look more like mobility scooters on steroids.

Progress, sort of. I think I have sorted the BCV issue, but now I am having a different one!

Is the pump supposed to be completely quiet? I purged it a few times for a long time (2-3 liters), but it still makes a low clicking noise.

I have run through all the tests and it all seems to work, good mist and progressive. I installed the one pre-turbo jet only.

So I went for a road test and all seemed to be working well, intake temps definitely down some even though I am only running the one jet and the Turbo seems very lively.

Upon coming to a stop and switching the car off, the relay was stuck on and very hot, I pulled the fuse. The pump seemed quite hot too. After cooling down the relay clicked back off.

Is the pump supposed to run all the time the system is switched on?

Is one jet too restrictive for the pump? (I just wanted to add the second one after assesing the effect of the first one).

Is it just a dodgy relay or a current draw issue? (can I get one from motorfactors, et al?).

Is the pump making the slight clicking because there is still some air in it and this is causing it to draw too much power?

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The pump should only come on when the system is about to inject. Have you altered any jumper links or set the threshold trimmer?

The pump pressure can be adjusted via a 1/16" allen key at the front of the pump. Factory setting is 160 PSI at deadhead. The ticking sound is quite common on this type of pump. It has an radial offset cam. May be there are still some air in the pump head.

The pump draws about 7-8A at 160psi. 11A at 220 psi. In order to lower the current, you can reduce the pressure down by 1/2T. As you are only use a very small amount of water, you can run lower pressure and reduce the temperature.

More importantly. The pump should not stay on. Relay draws about 100mA , it does get warm over time, but not overly so.

Let me know if the system turns only with the key in the "pre-crank"key position and not
before.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard, everything is as it says in the manual regarding operation of the FAV, all jumpers are in the default position. The pump runs constantly even when the FAV is not working, I did not know this was not correct because I have no experience and there is no mention in the manual regarding this. I did not adjust any trimmers because the FAV did not activate until it started to boost.
I thought the ticking was probably because it was a diaphram pump, and so it is, it is a very low clicking note and not alarming, never the less I will purge again.

The pump runs in the pre crank position.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

There are two ground wires on the power connect, please check both of them is securely grounded.

Does the pump stop running after you unplug the blue harness?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

My mistake, the pump does NOT run on pre-crank, but as soon as the engine is turned on.

Adjusting Threshold trimmer does not stop it, even at max. (It does however adjust FAV correctly).

Changing trigger jumper to MAP also does not turn it off.

All grounds have been checked and are good (both controller grounds are fixed to the same point).

Everything seems as it should be except the pump running. All tests in the manual have been completed without problem. FIDC light flashes with engine, changing with it's speed.

I think this has damaged the relay because it now sticks untill tapped.

I can come down to you if it would help diagnose, etc.

I have hooked the other nozzle up to increase flow and help pump, lol.

Thanks for your help and patience with a W/M Injection novice!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

One more check:

Is the wire order of the blue harness R, Y, BL, BK? From the gauge cable side.

I will send you another relay today.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Yes the cables in the plug are in that order.

If I can get said relay from motorfactors then I have no problem doing that.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Any automotive type relay will work. 4 or 5 =-pin.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

I think we are closer to solving this, I changed the relay, luckily I had a yellow one and then I could see by the arcing inside that it is not the pump making the clicking as it runs, but the relay being cycled by the controller!!! It is doing that constantly and hence burned the first relays contacts out.

It is cycling at the FIDC rate exactly in time with the green FDIC light on the controller!

What do yo think?

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Ah, I think I know what is happening. Hopfully.

Check the grey harness connection to the fuel injector. Make sure they are not reversed. The red should be on the injector (+) and Green on (-)

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Sadly, the polarity is correct. the order on the plug for those wires is red(unused and cut within plug),red,green then the other coloured cables.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

This is very strange. Can you send the controller back to me for checking. I am puzzled.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

I can do that or bring it to you with the car for a double check if you like? I could leave now!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

I will not be in the office today all day. Tomorrow or Friday will be good. Love to see the car.

Richard

[Dust]

I see bad things happening in the ERL shop this week

[evil laugh] HA HA HA HA HA HA [/evil laugh]

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Tomorrow would be great and it would be a real pleasure to meet you in person, what time should I aim to arrive at?

Dust, I am not worried, as life is always risk verses reward! And I am in capable hands. At the end of the day no one is responsible for what I want done other than me ;)

This project has given me so much pleasure and a little knowledge, this morning I woke at 4am to go tinker, haven't been this enthusiastic about anything for years, lol. Even this set back will be a plus as I get to see ERL and meet Richard and learn and understand more.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Any time from 9-9:30am It is a long drive. I will some coffe for you when you arrive.

It will be fun tomorrow.

[Kapt. Q]

Cheers Richard, really looking forward to it.

Lucian

[Kapt. Q]

Seeing as the aquamist is working correctly except the cycling pump, I thought why not activate the pump manually temporarily by wiring the relay to a switch? In doing so I learnt that it is the ground side of the circuit that is cycling. By installing a switched ground I stopped the cycling although it still runs full time without the switch. So with two jets I went for a spin. It took a little while do dial the settings in to stop bogging with the two nozzles as the map is completely wrong for this at the moment. I ended up putting the smallest restrictor in and ramping up the gain and threshold. I was able to hit maximum boost of 1.50 in the first 5 gears (5&6 are ridiculously long for economy, 6 is almost unusable in a stock Smart Fortwo), I have never been able to do this before!!! I could hit 1.49 in a couple of gears sometimes , It boggles the mind how good this will be when tuned. It is definitely running super rich in boost and I think I will be further amazed! Can't wait to see what the dyno says before and after tuning. It's running a lot cooler too, even with these minimal settings.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Interest how the engine react with a small amount of water.

Are you using 50% methanol or 100% water?

[Kapt. Q]

I am using 50/50 with your initial nozzle selection, perhaps straight/more water would be better without the remap as it must be very rich? I worry about ignition strength. I suppose best way to find out is try. Still it is pretty amazing to be able to richen it even further past what was optimal and yet still get better performance! It really is promising!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Spent a fair amount of time with the car today. Have eventually track down the problem of the pump was pulsed on in time with the fuel injector. Nothing wrong with the system nor the wiring.

The injector (+12) is very noisy, source of the interference. We routed the switch 12V to the fuse box for the fix. Tuning and play time starts now.

I really like the car, will be looking out for one in the next few weeks. Very roomy for two. Perfect for my daily 3 mile commute to my office. Impressed.

[Kapt. Q]

Big Thanks to Richard for sorting my problems!

I got the tour, how fantastic that great cutting edge engineering and production is still going on in this country, just another reason in a long list that I'm glad I went Aquamist!

The car is a different beast, even better on the way home with the gain re-adjusted, I can't believe the drop in intake temps!!!

Engine doesn't get over 82 degrees no matter how hard I tried, I can usually get it into the mid 90's on a long hard run in no time at all, particularly uphill (Iv'e hit 100+ on a hot day).

No ignition problems so far either, even when I ran out on the way home and added a liter of deionised water, probably giving me a 30/70 Meth/water mix.

Things can only get better with tuning.

A great day, thanks again,

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Good morning.

I gathered you have a great drive home, not too bad on the M25. What time did you actually arrived home?

I will redraw the wiring diagram and change the +12V pick up from a switched positive in the fuse box. That was a difficult one to diagnose. Wish they use thicker wire for the injector (+) to minimise the voltage fluctuation every time the injectors fires.

It is good to know at W70/M30. the engine did not big down. I think the next stage will be lowering the threshold a tad for earlier cooling.

[Kapt. Q]

High Richard,
I did adjust the threshold a little, but I think you are right and it could go lower! I will send you the ECU pin numbers and wire colours as they relate to this on the Smart for your diagram, know that I know what they are, lol.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

You will not over inject at low load as the system mirrors the fuel flow. The next state of play is introducing the manifold pressure signal to the water/meth flow. It is an under board solder modification. But meanwhile get to know the system

ECU pin out will be very handy. Thank you.

[Richard L]

Have you tried turning off the gauge (hence the system), the boost pressure should drop. If you get a CEL, you can use the jumper link marked "DR1" to stop CEL triggering.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

I am sold on pre turbo injection, car makes 1.5 bar boost in first five gears, it has never done this before!
I'm keen on the combined MAP FI system as it is the logical progression, giving a more accurate picture of injection requirements.
I will try the jumper, luckily my X-guage allows me to read and clear faults.
I think that my problems with the failsafe were caused by by me not understanding the system more than anything else! It is a steep learning curve for a novice.
It is good to get to grips with everything before tuning.
I only got manifold air temps of about 12 degrees above ambient on the way home (at some speed), I would not believe it if I hadn't witnessed it, lol. Usually it is a heatsoak situation that climbs and climbs above 40 over ambient. I have had the coolant temps over 100 on a hot day before, but it was rock solid 82 all the way! This will certainly allow more power to be made with tuning and still have les stress.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

ECU pin 39, wire colour green, Intake manifold pressure sensor.

ECU pin 72, wire colour blue, Injector 1 (can't remember if this is pos or neg, will check, think it neg)

ECU pin 68, wire colour Blue, BCV

[Richard L]

The list above will be something for you to venture forward. Get the best of the system.

Now that we have sized the water nozzles and the trigger point. Gain is set to 1:1. The water/methanol will mirror the fuel duty cycle all the way to 100%.

Play time starts now.

Can you get 99% pure methanol locally? make sure they are in seal container. 25L canister is very common.

[Dust]

waiting patiently to see how the km/l and power change.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi All,

Yes I have got pure methanol and distilled water from Reagent Chemicals, They deliver in sealed 25l containers, think I might need more soon ;)
Am looking for a more local and cheaper source too.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

ECU pin 39, wire colour green, Intake manifold pressure sensor.

ECU pin 72, wire colour blue, Injector 1 (can't remember if this is pos or neg, will check, think it neg)

ECU pin 68, wire colour Blue, BCV

Thank you for the info.

Do you have a more comprehensive detail of the ECU pin arrangement. I like to draw an outline of the ecu. If at any time you can unplug the ECU and take a few pictures of the pin-out side, I will be able to make an drawing from there. Don't forget to tell me where pin 1 is.

One more pin that will be very useful. A switched +12 for the red wire of the gray harness. This will make the wiring of the grey harness a deal deal simpler by not having to slit open the vinyl sleeving and pick out the red wire out of the bunch.

[Richard L]

Hi All,

Yes I have got pure methanol and distilled water from Reagent Chemicals, They deliver in sealed 25l containers, think I might need more soon ;)
Am looking for a more local and cheaper source too.

Cheers!

The price of methanol ranges between ?16-?25 per 25L. How much are you paying?

How long does your 8-litre tank last?

I cannot wait for you to get rid of the over-rich fuel maps. I like to see a leaner and meaner machine in the making.

[Kapt. Q]

I think that I paid more (45-50 delivered), it was a 'stop gap' measure untill I found somewhere else more local/cheaper.

The car has become quite the alchoholic, lol, it drinks heavily, I will have a better idea today of consumption rate vs petrol and mileage.

Yes that map has been bugging me for a while, it must suffer bore wash when cold.

Tuning next week if I can get it in with them.

[Richard L]

Good source of methanol: bio-fuel suppliers.

[Richard L]

Have just found this:

http://www.reagent.co.uk/methanol........ ?23.00/25L

http://www.dtchemicals.co.uk/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2 ....... ?89/205L

http://www.dtchemicals.co.uk/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1 ....... ?16/25L

add VAT and shipping.

[Kapt. Q]

Brilliant link, I'll go for the 205L option as the car is thirsty,

160 miles, 6 liters of mix and about 20 liters of petrol, but no missfires unless I turn threshold way down. Iv'e got the gain at it's lowest, but not getting large progression? It is progressive, but the car is kind of on or off normally. I think the mapping will make the injectors less 'on or off', you know how rich it is. Being so low flow compared to most applications must make it harder for the system to be progressive.
The relay is sticking, but perhaps I had the threshold turned down too much causing too much un-needed cycling? Can I put a capacitor somewhere to take the arc out of it and stop it heating up the contacts? (not sure if that's the correct approach but it rings a bell).

Really happy with it all, running like a dream, only hit 27 MAT (ambient 7) when taking it to the limits, this would normally give me 50+ !!!

Cheers!

Ps. Reagent Chemicals are cheap untill you add the delivery charge, then the price doubles!

[Kapt. Q]

Perhaps I should reduce my pump pressure to reduce current draw (saving relay) and increase the size of the restrictor to compensate?

Cheers!

[Richard L]

The relay should not have any problems, we have been using them for 16 months, not one report.

You could be right, since you are taking barely any flow so pressure stayed pretty high, hence the current. Half a turn counter clockwise will reduce it by ~15-20psi.

I am sending you a unfused 40A relay + an inline fuse. In case the other two failed again. Do you mind send the two relays back to me for examination. I will not charge you for the replacement. I will also send to a suppression diode to minimise arcing.

[Richard L]

Brilliant link, I'll go for the 205L option as the car is thirsty,

Ps. Reagent Chemicals are cheap until you add the delivery charge, then the price doubles!

Do not order any methanol until you do some more research. There might be a supplier near you. Sending hazardous chemical is expensive. Methanol is the cheapest form of alcohol.

[Richard L]

Brilliant link, I'll go for the 205L option as the car is thirsty,

160 miles, 6 liters of mix and about 20 liters of petrol, but no missfires unless I turn threshold way down. Iv'e got the gain at it's lowest, but not getting large progression? It is progressive, but the car is kind of on or off normally. I think the mapping will make the injectors less 'on or off', you know how rich it is. Being so low flow compared to most applications must make it harder for the system to be progressive.
The relay is sticking, but perhaps I had the threshold turned down too much causing too much un-needed cycling? Can I put a capacitor somewhere to take the arc out of it and stop it heating up the contacts? (not sure if that's the correct approach but it rings a bell).

Really happy with it all, running like a dream, only hit 27 MAT (ambient 7) when taking it to the limits, this would normally give me 50+ !!!



You car is certainly fast becoming an alcoholic.

Are you running two jets when bogging at the lowish threshold? Can you remember where the setting was (face of a clock)?

The gain should remain at 12 o'clock. Low gain will have no affect at low load. At high load, it will reduce flow.

It is quite a challenge to work in the region of 80cc to 150cc/min. The smallest valve we have is 450cc/min. If I have some spare time next week time next week. I will attempt to make a 200cc valve.

What is the "SC" setting at the moment?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,
I will send you the relays and turn down the pump 1/2 turn as instructed. I have just ordered 2 relays (and some 4mm line) from you too, will take the 40A relay and fuse instead of the relays ordered!

These teething problems are part of the challenge that make the rewards sweeter and increase knowledge base. I'm glad to be doing the learning curve before tuning. Really feel that I am getting to grips with it. I'd never have a turbo car without injection again, can't believe that it is not a factory fitted thing, even if just water, I think it would make more sense than an intercooler in a Smart (You have seen it's location, useless in a supposed city car that sits in traffic. If you park for 10 minutes, MAT will be 40+ when you start it again from absorbing engine heat, lol).
Had a clogged pre-turbo injector (couple of polishing mop fibers from tank, lol) and knew instantly because turbo boost like stock, (so must be pre turbo injector, the difference is that noticeable!!!) and flow down to 3 bars (1/2), system is brilliant in letting you know what is going on once you understand it (I have bypassed failsafe temporarily until mapping because no damage can occur till then anyway).

I'm stunned by the intake temp thing, the intercooler is never heat soaked, even if you give it some stick so MAT increases, and then let go of the throttle the MAT then drops like a stone!

As you say this car was born for injection.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

You car is certainly fast becoming an alcoholic.

Are you running two jets when bogging at the lowish threshold? Can you remember where the setting was (face of a clock)?

The gain should remain at 12 o'clock. Low gain will have no affect at low load. At high load, it will reduce flow.

It is quite a challenge to work in the region of 80cc to 150cc/min. The smallest valve we have is 450cc/min. If I have some spare time next week time next week. I will attempt to make a 200cc valve.

What is the "SC" setting at the moment?

The gain thing threw me, but I will put it at 12 o'clock, my threshold was very low when bogging, no boost and injecting, miss firing only until boost, I kept adjusting threshold upwards little by little until eliminated, now injection starts to kicks in at around .25(bar(ish).

Yes, running 2 jets

[Kapt. Q]

Yes, the car is developing a drinking problem, I used to call it 'The Angry Midget', but know it is the 'The Angry Alcoholic Midget' lol.

[Kapt. Q]

Will check SC setting tomorrow.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

SC is 1 o'clock, Gain 12 o'clock.

I get quite a surge when injection turns on, if i turn SC down so I can see the surge then it is 6-8 bars+ then it dies down to 3-4 bars, is this correct? (I usually set SC so normal flow is 6 bars (1o'clock)). I have checked the nozzles and the spray pattern is ok and it continues to drink heavily. I am worried that the tank was contaminated (I rinsed it with windshield washer concerntrate, shaking it vigoursly, then Meth/water, then water before installation), perhaps I have damaged the pump?

It is difficult with no experience to know, lol.

Will the surging cause the failsafe to activate? Do I perhaps have a partial blockage? I swapped the pre turbo injector to check, but no difference. Perhaps I should do the same for the post IC nozzle to check it?
The 'O' ring I lost (idiot) in the check valve injector must mean that the intake vacum is drying the lines between the injectors, will this cause a startup surge untill replaced?

I have not adjusted pump pressure yet (can't see the allen bolt but haven't looked hard yet), perhaps this would reduce the surge?

The car is running really well! Did over 100 miles to a VW show and it loved it!

Thanks for your help, hope to get an appointment with the tuner tomorrow for this week, fingers crossed.

Cheers!

Lucian

[Kapt. Q]

Ps. Perhaps I should link MAP and FIDC before the remapping?

[Richard L]

Observation 1: .......... SC setting
It appears from the SC setting the flow is matching the flow sensor's turbine speed pretty well. Do not alter the SC. It will not cure the surge.

Observation 2:........ Surge:
This can be caused by the empty line post FAV. As you have installed the FAV at a higher level than the water jet (not that you have much choice). The water inside the line will naturally empty itself during non-injection period. At the first instant of system trigger, air is purge off the line at greater speed than water alone, so the flow sensor will over read.

Question: have you been running the CV jet without an o-ring?

Two possible solutions:
1. Lower the FAV below the water jet.
2. Use checkvalve for the second jet.

Observation 3: .......... surge will trigger the upper limited of the failsafe window
Two solutions if it is triggering persistently:
3. Increase a couple of clicks for the upper window (WH)
4. Increase the failsafe trigger delay on the controller (FL-DL trimmer) - to 2pm (default =12 o'clock)

Observation 4: ........ decreasing the pump pressure to stop the surge:
5, It will have minimal effect to surge.

[Richard L]

Ps. Perhaps I should link MAP and FIDC before the remapping?

I would not use it just yet. At present. the flow is mirroring the true engine load. Based on the assumption of more fuel = more power = more heat.

Putting in the MAP sensor signal will make tuning more complicated as boost ramps and peaks differently in different gears.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Yes I have been running the CV jet without the internal 'o' ring since losing it yesterday, silly but I am addicted and have a larger Brabus 101 turbo to install next week and a spare identical turbo.
Any drips would have to go around an immediate sharp 90 degree bend and might hit wall of pipe then before travelling through at least 40cm more tube prior to turbo, was hoping this might minimise damage to turbo anyway.
I can lower the FAV but it will still be higher than the lowest jet, even if in the engine bay because the bottom of the intercooler where the jet is is at driveshaft level.

The extra check valve seems sensible.

I was running failsafe today, hence the issue was highlighted, I raised WH to stop having to clear CEL already (X-gauge allows me to do this while moving).

I'll raise the FS timing delay as suggested and retest tomorrow.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Without the o-ring, the jet will dribble and empty any fluid between the two jets. Once the o-ring is reinstated, the surge should go away. We'll send the bits out tomorrow.

[Kapt. Q]

I only raised SC setting to be able to visualise degree of surge, before returning it to normal position (1 o'clock and 6 bars).

[Richard L]

The SC should only be adjusted once for the duration of a particular set up. WL and WH can be trimmed daily if necessary.

[Kapt. Q]

Thank you Richard!

I think that I had surge before, but perhaps not to the same degree, there is a lot to get your head around all at once but I think I'm getting there. I'll pop the relays in the post tomorrow.

Cheers!

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,
interesting development, I did have a slight blockage of the post IC jet, cleaning it solved a bit of the surge and now it is a solid six bars at max FIDC with no wavering after initial surge (after reducing SC 1 click). I learnt how the nozzle is put together (never took the last few bits apart before), the machining of the components is something to behold.

What is the best thing to clean with? I used very strong acetone (expanding foam gun cleaner).

I am now feeling confident about the remap and injection, because I feel I know what is going on better. There is a lot of info being provided if you have the experience/knowledge to read it.

I have given up telling my fellow Smart enthusiasts about the benefits because they will not believe me! Some think you can get similar effects with an intercooler spray! Perhaps if I tow a tanker trailer? lol.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Can you tell what debris caused the blockage? I am very interested.

We are quite lucky to own a range of CNC machines, it looks after most of the tolerance problems from out sourcing the components.

Depending on what debris caused the blockage, we can use different cleaning agents.

You will enjoy a great deal more if you have some knowledge of how the system works. Relays should arrive today. I put a anti-surge diode on one and see it helps with the contact erosion due to arching.

Internal water injection uses five times less water and 10x more effective. I would also like to see you towing a 15-foot caravan up a hill. That will a much treasured picture.

[Kapt. Q]

lol,

Yes it all arrived, check valve fully operational and diode relay in operation, thank you very much for it all. Surge seems to be very little now, 1 barish at most on occasion. I also trimmed all lines to the minimum required.

I think the obstruction was caused by the lack of the O ring, allowing the pre turbo injector to pull oil and crud from the bottom of the intercooler where the post IC jet is.(crankcase venting prior to turbo, I have a catch can on my desk to stop this). It is also possible that it was polishing mop fibers from the tank that are probably small enough to pass filters end on, as they might be when in a flowing stream (like an eel ;)). I think it is most likely that I caused these issues, not your manufacturing!

Your injector calculations seem to be spot on, I replaced post IC jet with the 90cc (instead of the 120cc) by way of experiment (I must be getting confident, lol), and the MAT went up by at least 6-8 degrees on a hard pull! Needless to say I have returned to the 120cc jet. It will be interesting to see what uping the methanol concerntration a little will do after tuning.

I have gone through about 45 liters of mix so far! Definitely going for 205 liters of meth next time!

I'm really feeling ready for the tuning now and feel that I know the system enough to have a good idea when it is working correctly and what might be wrong if it isn't, the problems experienced being more valuable learning than if I'd got it right first time.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

These are great progress information on tap. Thank you for the update.

It is good to know you can gather quite a bit of information from looking at the moving flow display.

45 litres of mix later, you have really know the system well. Every little detail matters on a delivery system. The absence of an o-ring is a fine example.

You could be correct about the oil contamination to the thin spiral grooves [edited] on the insert inside the jet. Coming out of the deep end winning is the best way to learn.

[Richard L]

I am confident that we can go forward with some confidence tuning the car. All little problem bits has been resolved.

May be a few more drinks for the poor engine before taking it to be brain washed.

[Dust]

Can you post links to your smart forum thread(s)?

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Dust,

Here's the link, I posted on the 'onsmart' forum too but got almost no response, it's just a bit far out of mainstream for most, sad really because it really is made for it. But I doubt I'd believe the results even before tuning unless I'd experienced them either. I'm looking forward to posting the dyno results when the tunings done, HP figures should generate a bit more intrest than theory, sadly.

http://www.smartmaniacs.co.uk/showthread.php?70117-Smart-Alcoholic

Cheers!

[Dust]

Thanks, not much going on even in that thread.

Richard, how will the FAV cope with being used this much? Reading the install manuals, it says not to activate the FAV for more than 60 seconds.

[Richard L]

The instruction was referring to the initial priming procedure. It warns user not to run the FAV in static mode for over 1 minute because there might not be any fluid going through the valve to conduct the heat away. Once primed, this doesn't applied anymore.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Richard,

Do you think that now is a good time to experiment with a third jet? (post IC). perhaps the 70cc one, or two 70s or a 70+90? possible combinations are 140cc, 160cc, 190cc, 210cc, I am currently using the 120cc.

The relays are going out to you tomorrow, sorry for the delay.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

I think you can push the envelope until the engine bogs down. If spark is not flying, you need to increase meth ratio. But you are already quiet rich. It is a difficult decision to tune first or more experiment more now.

No harm in push the same 50/50 and see where the limits are. Don't forget make a plan on paper or you won't have have any meaningful chart in the end.

[Kapt. Q]

Having seen the MAT rise between 90cc and 120cc, I think there maybe room for improvement, but as you say, it is a fine line, it is definitely so rich right now that top end acceleration is harmed compared to without injection, but no miss-firing (turbo boosts so much better besides this even so!). Perhaps good to know how far it can be pushed before tuning as a bench mark. I think that tuning with all the possible permutations may take a whole day to complete!
Cheers!

[Dust]

Richard, have you ever killed an FAV? Just wondering, as he, and I will probably have the thing running most of the time. Will it be able to do 5-15% for 5 hours straight?

[Richard L]

No, never.

The only way the FAV is going to die pre-maturely is hydrocarbon contamination. It can take a matter of minutes.

[Dust]

No, never.


Challenge accepted:p

[Kapt. Q]

I have absolute confidence in the system, it's my own ineptitude with it that worries me, lol!
Cheers!

[Richard L]

Challenge accepted:p

Going into a smart car?

[Kapt. Q]

http://www.turborebuild.co.uk/p/product/1012032161-Garrett+GT12,+GT1238s+MMC+Smart+Car+Comp ressor+wheel+434976-0005/

It may be a tiny turbo, but it's compressor wheel also has a tiny price, so water erosion now holds no fear!

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Very reasonable.

A matter of interest, what is the stock boost setting from factory?

[Kapt. Q]

Stock boost is 0.8bar in my car (stock performance 45kw 61hp), Stock it uses the smallest of the three Smart turbos.

1.7bar is possible with the right turbo, but 1.5 is what a lot of modded Smart fortwo's run using a roadster turbo (middle model turbo)

Roadsters run just over 1.0bar stock (can't remember exact figure).

Cheers!

[Dust]

Going into a smart car?

No, gonna find a way to wear it out. There are no FI smarts in the US that I know of. A smart with a boosted hayabusa engine would be nice though.

[Dust]

http://www.turborebuild.co.uk/p/product/1012032161-Garrett+GT12,+GT1238s+MMC+Smart+Car+Comp ressor+wheel+434976-0005/

It may be a tiny turbo, but it's compressor wheel also has a tiny price, so water erosion now holds no fear!

Cheers!


I wish I could find more info on the VQ-37 turbo my car had. I had to use a motorcycle carb filter for when I was experimenting with Hot air intakes. I think the OD was a little over 1 inch.

[Kapt. Q]

No, gonna find a way to wear it out. There are no FI smarts in the US that I know of. A smart with a boosted hayabusa engine would be nice though.

There are a few 450's (old shape turbos like mine) in the States and there are turbo kits available in the US for the 451 that is sold there.

Bike engined Smarts tend to be impractical dogs because of the weak bike gearbox and the engines that have to be going mega rpm to make power, also you loose ABS and ESP.

Better to put a toyota MR2 engine in as my friend did:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0005-2.jpg
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/KaptQ/CIMG0002gg.jpg

It won a prize at 'Smart Times' the official international meet.

Cheers!

[Dust]

Used 2005 smart fortwo passion. Seem to be only 3 for sale on autotrader in the entire country.

[Kapt. Q]

Used 2005 smart fortwo passion. Seem to be only 3 for sale on autotrader in the entire country.

Buy it! You'll have something unique! The 'Passion' is a max options model. It also has the 700cc, 2002 and earlier have the 600cc.

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Nice looking car!

MR2 turboed engine?

[Kapt. Q]

Nice looking car!

MR2 turboed engine?

No, it was the non turbo 2.0 16v, but no problem to turbo it too for 300hp+, much better than a Hyabusa! There is a similar yellow and black smart (Froglet) on the Hill climb curcit that pops wheelies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1mIZ9nKlBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hBWVWbQZ4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtKdDkMPAUw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSDf8Vc_7bU

Cheers!

[Richard L]

Wow, watched them all. Very entertaining indeed. I saw a bit of drifting on the last video. You don't happen to have some footage of the smart car doing drifting? It is rare wheel driven.

[Dust]

Buy it! You'll have something unique! The 'Passion' is a max options model. It also has the 700cc, 2002 and earlier have the 600cc.

Cheers!

Here in Japan we have the 600 and 700. I would buy the 600 because of the tax system here. I don't know if I would want to be driving a smart on some of the roads in Central Texas. If I was city bound, and there was a full size available, maybe.

How much "better" is the 700 than the 600.

[Kapt. Q]

So, time for an update:

All is now mechanically sound, Brabus turbo installed and working, engine mount and thermostat replaced, Water injection functioning correctly, throttle body sorted.

Remapping to take advantage of it all starts on Wednesday morning!

Cheers!

Hi Dust, the 700 is more reliable, it doesn't work so hard. Supposedly the 600 can rev better although it has a heavier flywheel (the 700 is a stroked 600). I have no experience of it personally. Central Texas would be no problem, the 450's are 4 star NCAP rated, there's some good crash vids on youtube, you might be surprised at their performance in that dept.

[Dust]

updates? I'd like to see how it is going.

[Kapt. Q]

Hi Dusty and all,
Everything is well, the car goes like the clappers, tuning is not quite complete as work interupts, lol. Initial mapping has been great, redline in 5th is now possible (amazing for the long ratios used in the fortwo as that is about 100mph before then shifting to 6th). I'm running 60/40 meth/water and often hit sub ambient intake temps. I'll be remapping within the next few days because 3-4000rpm is a little flat, after 4000 it is very, very lively. Dyno runs will happen shortly (tuners dyno broken), in the meantime I am data logging with OBD II bluetooth, I'll post data soon. I keep expecting it to blow up but it has not yet, but then stress is actually reduced, coolant temp never rises above 91C, I could hit 98C before WI when only producing 97hp with sustained heavy load!

Cheers!