Setting up failsafe issues

[rbamon]

Hi all, I might be totally missing something here but ill explain.
Basically we tuned my r33 and went from 330 to 360rwkw with the aquamist and 98 octane caltex.
We set the SC to display 5 bars on the dyno, but how do you set the upper and lower failsafe settings? Should the lights come up as I adjust it?
Or do I align the potentiometers with the SC one and then 2 clicks either way respectively??
Iv had a look around for this but not alot has helped. Im sure iv completely missed something :confused:

Thanks!

[Richard L]

Before making WL and WH failsafe window adjustment:

Make a mental note of the gauge readings. the max should be ~5-6 bars. Adjust SC if necessary.

Set the WL to 8am and WH to 1pm. Drive the car and to test the WH, if there is failsafe activation, adjust WH few clciks clockwise. Repeat until no failsafe activation is noted. Add two extra clicks clockwise. WH is now adjusted

Now set the WL to 11am. adjust trimmer counter clockwise until no more activation occurs. Add two clicks counter clockwise.

Watch the road.

[rbamon]

Hmm, thats not real easy. full power lights wheels at anything under 150km/h.
Ill have a go. I thought this may have been the case but wasnt 100% sure. I had already set the SC to 6 bars on the dyno.
Thanks Richard

[rbamon]

Also, if I set it back just one click, will it accidentally trigger alot? Its tuned on such a fine line I cant afford any loss of water meth, or is 2 hardly anything anyway?

[rbamon]

I tried to set it, I set the scale to 6 bars, the WH was relatively easy to set, but the WL would not trigger the failsafe activation. I can go full scale either way and it wont trigger failsafe??

[Howerton Engineering]

Not to muddy the waters, but this is how we set the failsafe : http://howertonengineering.com/tech-info/setting-the-dds3-failsafe/

[rbamon]

Thats Helpful. I didnt think to use the full spray trigger with jet out and engine off.
Doesnt explain why I couldnt get lower trigger to activate by having WL at either end of scale?

[Howerton Engineering]

The WL is setting the failsafe for when the kit starts to spray under light load. It can't really be set with the car stationary, you have to drive the car as per the web page.

[rbamon]

I was driving the car when I was trying to set it though. I did understand however that it triggers if the 'max' flow falls outside the window, not when it begins spraying?
Whats to let you know if your jets a little clogged and its not quite spraying fully when your revving right out?

[dave80]

Not to muddy the waters, but this is how we set the failsafe : http://howertonengineering.com/tech-info/setting-the-dds3-failsafe/

yup this is the info I used. Much easier to set the sc and wh.

[rbamon]

Im confused as to when the WL safe is triggered, I thought it was so when the systems running full, it has a window, not from the point of where it starts.
Can someone explain this better? Im just curious to how I know if my sprays down a little at full boost, as that will be very detrimental..
Thanks

[Richard L]

I will have a go ....

WL triggers the failsafe if the flow is below the window area at the lowest point of a flow event.
WH triggers the failsafe if the flow is above the window area at the highest point of a flow event.

WL has to be set to match the trigger point (threshold trimmer). Can only be done by trial and error. WH is quite simple after setting the 5/6 bars with SC during manual trigger (SYS).

Sensitivity of the failsafe trigger can be increased or decrease with the "FSDL" (failsafe delay) trimmer on the controller board.

[rbamon]

I understand that, but does the WL follow the flow relative to the gain or threshold? though? Or just if it falls under the lowest flow part?
That would mean you could never tell if your jet had a tiny blockage and you were only spraying 90% of what you should be when its at IDC 95%? Or would the WL pick that up too?

[Richard L]

This is true, it can only detect over or under flow outside the window area, it does not detect partial flow drop within an event. But on the next event the WL will pick up the flow drop as the entire flow curve is lowered.

We have looked into the progressive flow detection window but it creates more false alarms than picking up a unique flow drop event. So we opted for the simpler approach.

If you are very concern about the partial flow loss, run the system in single stage mode and narrow up the window width.

We have been working on this for a good while but will not release it until we are totally happy with the performance. There is standalone progressive failsafe system offered by a US company (AEM) but not sure if their approach works better in practise than what you have got at the moment. Look into it.

[rbamon]

Ok, that makes more sense, thanks, so say if my jet starts to clog, the flow scale will fall under the flow window even when it just begins to spray? I would have thought a partial blockage would not be picked up by sensor until its nearing max flow? Or is it that sensitive?
Thanks for clearing this up for me.

[Howerton Engineering]

I was driving the car when I was trying to set it though. I did understand however that it triggers if the 'max' flow falls outside the window, not when it begins spraying?
Whats to let you know if your jets a little clogged and its not quite spraying fully when your revving right out?

In the middle of 1 gear pull it may not catch it if the system drops a small portion of the spray near max output, but when you shift it will not come up to proper spray fast enough and trigger the failsafe. On paper it may not sound perfect, but in practice it works very well.

This is why it's important to get the SC set right, as with the proper sensitivity it will catch an issue on spool up(injection commencing). This is usually what happens before you have a bigger issue like in the middle of a hard pull. A small blockage will be caught when first triggered.

Many of the calls we get after some use of the system is the failsafe is tripping and people don't know why as it seems to be spraying fine(AFR wise). What they don't realize is it taking a fraction of a second longer than it should to spool up the flowsensor and the failsafe catches it.

[rbamon]

Thanks everyone for the help, I set the SC to just display the 6th bar on full spray (using the SYS jumper) I dialled the WH back until the 'B' was flashing, then back 1 click. Will set the WL soon as I can get the time.

[rbamon]

Im still having trouble :-( The WL wont trip failsafe. The SC is 6 bars, the WH is set, the best I can get from the WL is to make the 'B' come on, straight away flash off then back on continually spraying?? Wont trigger it off at all. Why?
Is something wrong with the settings, or the system, or is it just something wrong with me?

[Howerton Engineering]

How are you testing this? I sounds like it IS tripping at cut in as it flashes off. When the B light is off the failsafe is tripped.

[rbamon]

The b comes on for a second, goes off then instantly back on, like it wont stay tripped?

[Howerton Engineering]

It won't stay tripped. The failsafe trips for 3-4 seconds then tries to reset itself.

[rbamon]

When the B goes off, it comes back on less that quarter of a second later

[Richard L]

There are two timers on the failsafe.

1. Transition delay timer (FSDL) .......... 0.2s - 0.6s.
2. Failsafe reset timer .......... ~3 seconds (fixed)

The Transition delay timer allows the flow signal to stablise before triggering a failsafe event. The start of the transition time is indicated by the onset of the B symbol. If fluid flow does not arrive inside the window area during this grace period, the failsafe will trip and reduce boost.

You can experiment of the FSDL trrimmer on the controller by extending of shorten this "grace" period.

[rbamon]

But either way, why would it trip for a millisecond at best? Once it trips should it not stay tripped? The B always comes back on immediately after going off

[rbamon]

I did think about the FSDL but wasnt sure it would help

[Richard L]

I think you may be confused with the function of the "B". B does not indicate a failsafe trip.

B comes on at the start of an injection event (when threshold is reached). It stays on about 100mS + FSDL, during this time the flow signal must be inside the window area. If it does, the 3-second failsafe will trip and drop boost.

B (100mS) + FSDL allows the flow signal to stabilise so the false alarm will be minimised.

If you cannot get the WL to trip, rotate the WL clockwise or decrease the FSDL.

[rbamon]

Thanks Richard, looks like ill need to adjust the delay as having WL even full clockwise wont trigger it

[Richard L]

There must be something wrong with the WL trimmer. I will send you some instruction how to test it. It will be on the gauge.

Richard

[rbamon]

Ok, thanks Richard