A few questions concerning preTurbo water injection

[mrx79]

Hi,
i'am reading here for a long time, but never had the time to install/test my WI system in my car. Today i made some first testruns.

As a background: Engine is a Honda B16A1 turbocharged with a GTX2860 .48ar T3 Turbine, running stable boost of around 1.1bar on pumpgas (98 ROZ).

based on RICE RACINGs threads i decided to go pre-turbo injection.
Currently installed is a 350ccm nozzle. I run my 550ccm fuel injectors at around 80%dc at redline and at activation boost of 0,6bar they have aprox. 23%dc.

I run normaly rich mixtures (i know propably too rich for pure water) of lambda 0,8 under boost. Timing is normaly retarted. Aprox. 0,5?/psi as a rough guideline of how much retard i'am running.

My first tests where without meth, but i will try later.

Maybe someone can say something about my experiences:
- i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water.
- with water activated at 0,6bar, my spoolup is delayed by about 500rpm later then without water.
- the overall boost i lowered (with same WG and boost controller settings) by 0,1-0,15bar

[mrx79]

I also wanted to add, that i don't see a temp drop in my IAT (Bosch TMAP) Sensor which is located at the outlet of my intercooler tank. Is that normal? maybe sensor too slow for a 3rd gear pass or is it a sign of that my water is not properly vaporized

[parmas]

First running pre-turbo with intercooler, in theory, it will not gain any IAT drop in temps.

Although with pre-turbo spool up time should be increased not decreased.

Did you test the setup on dyno or on street? If yes do a dyno map with and without water injection and compare maps. Do not care about bhp and torque since with water injection you should see a drop in power and torque because tuning would be needed.

Please post some pictures of the setup of the pre-turbo and engine bay..

[mrx79]

Hi, thanks for the reply.
Can you explain why spoolup will suffer from pre-turbo injection?

I will try to make some Pictures, but it's hard to see because it's very tight in the engine bay and the main components are behind the front bumper and the power steering pump.

But basicaly, you can think of the Installation like that.
The turbo sits in front of the engine. the compressor intake faces to the driver side. From there a tube goes streight to the left (when you are in front of the car) to the fender.

In the Fender there sits the air filter inside an Aluminium case which has an opening at the front for air intake.

The nozzle is inserted thru a small hole on the side of the airfilter and is fixed after the airfilter. from there to the Turbo it's aprox. 15-20cm to the turbo inlet (streight).

After that the pluming is a normal FMIC Installation, nothing Special.

[RICE RACING]

Hi,
i'am reading here for a long time, but never had the time to install/test my WI system in my car. Today i made some first testruns.

As a background: Engine is a Honda B16A1 turbocharged with a GTX2860 .48ar T3 Turbine, running stable boost of around 1.1bar on pumpgas (98 ROZ).

based on RICE RACINGs threads i decided to go pre-turbo injection.
Currently installed is a 350ccm nozzle. I run my 550ccm fuel injectors at around 80%dc at redline and at activation boost of 0,6bar they have aprox. 23%dc.

I run normaly rich mixtures (i know propably too rich for pure water) of lambda 0,8 under boost. Timing is normaly retarted. Aprox. 0,5?/psi as a rough guideline of how much retard i'am running.

My first tests where without meth, but i will try later. WI alone will give gains IF you are knock limited in your set up, otherwise it will generally cost you power, especially if you do not adjust your calibration to take effect of the water injection. My suggestion is try the different injectant fluid and report back.

Maybe someone can say something about my experiences:
- i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water.
- with water activated at 0,6bar, my spoolup is delayed by about 500rpm later then without water.
- the overall boost i lowered (with same WG and boost controller settings) by 0,1-0,15bar

These are all normal findings.

Some of the loss can be recovered by 'beefing up' your spark, even if you have no audible misfires I can gurantee you that it will be much harder to initiate combustion when running water injection on an otherwise optimized calibration for fuel alone.

All the other standard knowledge here applies, you will loose power when you run water injection at your Lambda, even if you go optimal of 0.92 you will still loose a tiny bit of power over the fuel alone set up.

IAT finding is generally correct, it will only have a noticible effect on lowering temperature if the compressor is worked hard or the IC is undersized.

This above is one of the reasons I changed to soley WM50 mixture as an injectant.

Hope this helps.

[RICE RACING]

Try WM50 (same flow rate), set your Lambda to the same 0.8 as on fuel alone, and report back, you should see a power increase on this alone (no ign altering).

[mrx79]

Hallo,
thanks very much. Meth is on the way to me and i will test it as soon as it arrives.

I also have one question i was wondering about.
In the beginning i was worrying that my water mist could recondensate in the intercooler and then kept in the end tank of the intercooler.

But after a full tank i removed the IC and checked, there where no sign of water in it.

Do you think, that all water kept vaporized until the air/water mix reaches the cylinder?
What if 100% humidity is reached before all water is vaporized in the compressor (can that actualy happen?) will the rest be transported in the cylinder and vaporize there under pressure?

so basicaly the question is, how much a in cylinder effect (cleaning, knock supression, further charge cooling, retarding of the burn process) could i expect when injecting pre-turbo?

Thanks

[RICE RACING]

The water will NEVER pool, it will condense back into a liquid, however it will stay in very fine atomized form, its hard to explain on a computer, but it just stays in suspension in the air stream... it will enter the cylinder in very fine mist form and then turn from liquid in suspension into a vapor then finally turn to steam under the effect of compression of the cylinder.

You will like the WM50 much better, remember by mass not volume.

[mrx79]

Thats good News... i will let you know what MW50 will bring up. Much thanks already for your words.

[parmas]

Hi, thanks for the reply.
Can you explain why spoolup will suffer from pre-turbo injection?

I will try to make some Pictures, but it's hard to see because it's very tight in the engine bay and the main components are behind the front bumper and the power steering pump.

But basicaly, you can think of the Installation like that.
The turbo sits in front of the engine. the compressor intake faces to the driver side. From there a tube goes streight to the left (when you are in front of the car) to the fender.

In the Fender there sits the air filter inside an Aluminium case which has an opening at the front for air intake.

The nozzle is inserted thru a small hole on the side of the airfilter and is fixed after the airfilter. from there to the Turbo it's aprox. 15-20cm to the turbo inlet (streight).

After that the pluming is a normal FMIC Installation, nothing Special.

I meant that water injecting pre turbo should boost earlier than without due to colder/denser air is being sucked by the turbo.

Re the pre-turbo nozzle setup, I am understanding that the nozzle is installed further away from the turbo, is this right? Other pre-turbo setup I saw were injecting directly into compressor wheel

What heat-range and gap size are your plugs? Also what is the engine compression?

[mrx79]

Hi,
my nozzle is a bit more away from the compressor wheel then on the Picture, but not very much. Maybe 10cm upstream the compressor.

I also thought that spoolup should be increased, but it's definitly the other way around and can be reproduced. Maybe the pure water reduced the turbine power too much. Or the compressor had more work to do because of the additional mass of the water?!. But i'am not sure.

Plugs are NGK BKR7EIX Iridium's and the plug gap is stock (not sure how much). Compression of the engine is around 8.5:1cr.

Also did some recalculations and i think with my activation boost and the 350ccm of water the water to fuel Ratio is pretty high at that rpm. Have to do an exact calculation, but even at redline the Ratio is still 24% water to fuel, so i expect it to be much more at around 3750rpm when it activates.

As RICE saied, the ignition System will have a hard time with so much water without leaner and earlier ignition. And even if the engine pulls, i'am sure there are slight misfires which costs power (maybe this is also a reason for the spoolup issue).

Maybe to try a smaller Jet. ;-)

[parmas]

Hi,
my nozzle is a bit more away from the compressor wheel then on the Picture, but not very much. Maybe 10cm upstream the compressor.

I also thought that spoolup should be increased, but it's definitly the other way around and can be reproduced. Maybe the pure water reduced the turbine power too much. Or the compressor had more work to do because of the additional mass of the water?!. But i'am not sure.

Plugs are NGK BKR7EIX Iridium's and the plug gap is stock (not sure how much). Compression of the engine is around 8.5:1cr.

Also did some recalculations and i think with my activation boost and the 350ccm of water the water to fuel Ratio is pretty high at that rpm. Have to do an exact calculation, but even at redline the Ratio is still 24% water to fuel, so i expect it to be much more at around 3750rpm when it activates.



As RICE saied, the ignition System will have a hard time with so much water without leaner and earlier ignition. And even if the engine pulls, i'am sure there are slight misfires which costs power (maybe this is also a reason for the spoolup issue).

Maybe to try a smaller Jet. ;-)

I am running NGK Heat range 6 on my 8.5:1 compression engine yours is 7 makes it cooler.

Stock gaps are not good for custom setups, recommended gap is 0.6mm or lower. That should give some less stress to the ignition system aswell.

25% seems over but that depends what the engine wants.

[mrx79]

Hi,
did some tests with WM50/50 (by weight) today. But not very much luck.
Car is still slower and makes less power with WI activated.

My parameters are:
max. Boost: 1,25bar (with WI boost drops to 1,1bar)
WI activation at 0,6bar
same ignition advance (aprox. 22.5btdc under boost)
played a bit with afr, but almost no difference between 0,8 and 0,85 lambda.

max. tq /wo WI = 355Nm
max. tq /w WI same AFR =323Nm
max. tq /w WI -5% AFR = 331Nm

I'am still fear that my nozzle is just too big (for my conservative tune/boost levels) as i have a water-to-fuel ratio or 60% at activation boost pressure and it will go down to still 23% at 8k redline.

As a guideline i inject 350ccm of WM mixture on my 1,6L engine.

Anyone any more ideas or should i try a smaller nozzle?!

[parmas]

Hi,
did some tests with WM50/50 (by weight) today. But not very much luck.
Car is still slower and makes less power with WI activated.

My parameters are:
max. Boost: 1,25bar (with WI boost drops to 1,1bar)
WI activation at 0,6bar
same ignition advance (aprox. 22.5btdc under boost)
played a bit with afr, but almost no difference between 0,8 and 0,85 lambda.

max. tq /wo WI = 355Nm
max. tq /w WI same AFR =323Nm
max. tq /w WI -5% AFR = 331Nm

I'am still fear that my nozzle is just too big (for my conservative tune/boost levels) as i have a water-to-fuel ratio or 60% at activation boost pressure and it will go down to still 23% at 8k redline.

As a guideline i inject 350ccm of WM mixture on my 1,6L engine.

Anyone any more ideas or should i try a smaller nozzle?!

You cannot make more power with water/meth injection especially because you are leaving ignition advance the same!

With water + meth injection there is need for ignition advance due to slower burn rate. So to compare you need to max your ignition advance without water/meth injection until you see some power/torque go down and back to 2-3 Degrees for safety then turn on water/meth injection, set 15% if you are intercooled or 25% if you are non-intercooled, put car on dyno, increase advance after 2psi boost where water injection begins. Keep increasing ignition advance until you see a drop in power and again retard 2-3 Degrees. Now compare and you are doing more power and torque with water injection on !

What Air Temps are you seeing?

[mrx79]

Intake Air temperatures are 24-28?C (sometimes 30?C).
First number is at the beginning of the 3rd gear pull, second at redline.

I understand what you say, i'am just not very compfortable with higher ignition advance numbers right now. Don't want to hurt something and i stayed away from high boost much advance tuning until now. ;-)

I think i just have to get warm with it...

the 22.5 is pretty much the safe MBT for that boost Level. Checked that in a series of dyno pulls without WI.

Do you have a (very) rough number on how much more advance i would normaly need or at least which would be definitly too much advance?
Do you think i should see a regain of Tq. by adding a series of +2, +4, +6 degrees? or do you think i would need even more?

[parmas]

24-28C @ 16psi !! What is your ambient temp ?

These are good temps, are these with water injection on?

You will not hurt nothing if you increase 1-2 degree per run. Just don't keep advancing if you see the motor loosing power. Normally 5 Degrees of advance from beginning to end of injection should be needed for a 50/50 mix but that depends how much water/meth you are throwing.

Also you should know that the cooler the air mixture the more advance you need to complete the burn.

Surely advance is an issue here!

[mrx79]

Hi,
these IAT's are with aprox. 20?C ambient temperature. Intercooler seems to be very effective. The IATs are with water injection, but as i saied in my first post's they are not much higher without as well. A few degrees.

My IAT Sensor is by the way at half the way from the IC to the throttle, so the air in the intake runners may be a bit hotter, but under WOT Lambda control and IAT correction based on the IAT sensor Information shows that charge temps are correct.

I thank you very much for your Inputs. I will try a few ignition runs at the weekend.

unfortunatly don't have a smaller nozzle right now but will buy one as soon as i can.

[RICE RACING]

They are all typical results, you will need to reduce the rate of injection fluid by half at least.

[RICE RACING]

You are not loosing any power on the WM50 mixture at all IF you run equivalent boost ;) As this is exactly the difference you have in torque :)
7% or so ........

2.25 absolute bar / 2.1 bar absolute

= 1.071 * 331 = ~355N/m

Do NOT touch your timing! if you want to try and pick up a bit of power put your boost back to the fuel only setting !!! and then take up my advice to reduce your injection amount, and IT WILL MAKE MORE POWER ON WM50 :)

Regards

[parmas]

You are not loosing any power on the WM50 mixture at all IF you run equivalent boost ;) As this is exactly the difference you have in torque :)
7% or so ........

2.25 absolute bar / 2.1 bar absolute

= 1.071 * 331 = ~355N/m

Do NOT touch your timing! if you want to try and pick up a bit of power put your boost back to the fuel only setting !!! and then take up my advice to reduce your injection amount, and IT WILL MAKE MORE POWER ON WM50 :)

Regards

When injecting water or meth or combined ignition advance must be increased according injection amounts. You will ALWAYS LOOSE POWER when injecting water/meth without increasing advance.

NOTES:

1 . The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque

2 . Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive

3 . Boost does not automatically mean retard your timing

4 . The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion

5 . Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder

6 . Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating

7 . Water does not burn. There will be no combusting of the hydrogen in the H2O

8 . Injection of 15% water reduces knock better than increasing fuel 4-5 Octane

9 . Injection of water reduces inlet air temperature equal more power


Check this website if any of you say otherwise http://mywintek.com/waterinjection.htm

[RICE RACING]

Good luck to you, FACT stands same boost = same torque, with no need to molest the timing to chase power that is only less cause the boost is lower on WI ;)

No need to molest your timing, just decrease the amount to more correct state for your engine, simple.

[RICE RACING]

You cannot make more power with water/meth injection especially because you are leaving ignition advance the same!

With water + meth injection there is need for ignition advance due to slower burn rate. So to compare you need to max your ignition advance without water/meth injection until you see some power/torque go down and back to 2-3 Degrees for safety then turn on water/meth injection, set 15% if you are intercooled or 25% if you are non-intercooled, put car on dyno, increase advance after 2psi boost where water injection begins. Keep increasing ignition advance until you see a drop in power and again retard 2-3 Degrees. Now compare and you are doing more power and torque with water injection on !

What Air Temps are you seeing?

You are mad!

You are basically giving this poor man advice to blow up his engine! that is very poor of you, what cars have you done or set up ??????? not many by the sound of it.

Please do not hand out advice to people when you have not one idea of what you are talking about or the end disaster it will cause the owner.

Thanks!

[RICE RACING]

This is some of the worst advise I have had the misfortune to read anywhere on the internet, I am dumbfounded that you would hand out advice like "keep increasing timing until you see a drop in power" LOL............ More likely he will see his crank shaft drop out of his car before he will see a drop in power from the incessant KNOCK!

Your quoted advise has to be the single most stupid and dangerous statement around.

~22BTDC is allot of advance!!!! already, he does not need any more, given the fuel quality @ hand, the totally arbitrary guidance on ratio's and applications is plain outrageous and shows you have done nothing but read off the internet, not really doing any real testing yourself on this subject to be handing out nuggets of wisdom as you have.

It's patently obvious to anyone that if the user simply does NOTHING ELSE but run equal boost he has not lost any power on the heavy WM50 mixture, this is contrary to your best internet research and re postings!

In the interest of his set up he would be far better off doing the following.

A) Winding up his boost on the original atomizer (as that is the only size he has now).
B) Decreasing the rate and running the same boost, he will have more power than on fuel alone and no need to touch his already high timing settings.

~2500millibar absolute (2.5 bar *assuming he is not in Mexico!!! lets say 1.5 bar gauge pressure) is what he should go to, enough injector to do it, and on WM50 it will be safe and boost for boost it will be line ball. And ZERO risk for the end user with a broken engine bill on random internet cut and paste advise.

To save your motor and sanity I have pm'd my personal email, feel free to contact me for proper guidance.

[mrx79]

Hi,
thanks for all your advices. Please keep the thread clean. I think everyone has to think about every advice he is given. If one follows blindly then things will brake and that will happen often enough.

As i saied earlier, i'am not compfortable with high advance values under boost. Even if they make power in the first place, but even if no knock is present, things can be stressed and fail, especialy on the long run.

Thats why i decided (based on all factors, my own calculations and all tips) first to try less WI.

I will keep you updated.

[parmas]

This is some of the worst advise I have had the misfortune to read anywhere on the internet, I am dumbfounded that you would hand out advice like "keep increasing timing until you see a drop in power" LOL............ More likely he will see his crank shaft drop out of his car before he will see a drop in power from the incessant KNOCK!

When you tune for ignition timing you always beware of knock. If MRX9 is tuning on dyno with an expert tuner, normally there should be knock ears to prevent it. If tuning on street, you can datalog knock while increasing ignition timing 1-2 degree at a time.

Your quoted advise has to be the single most stupid and dangerous statement around.

~22BTDC is allot of advance!!!! already, he does not need any more, given the fuel quality @ hand, the totally arbitrary guidance on ratio's and applications is plain outrageous and shows you have done nothing but read off the internet, not really doing any real testing yourself on this subject to be handing out nuggets of wisdom as you have.

Every engine is different, you are being stupid stating it is a lot. If two brothers had the same engine but one is 8.5 compression while the other is 12.5 compression, 22degrees could be a lot for 12.5 while on 8.5 is too far away!

It's patently obvious to anyone that if the user simply does NOTHING ELSE but run equal boost he has not lost any power on the heavy WM50 mixture, this is contrary to your best internet research and re postings!

In the interest of his set up he would be far better off doing the following.

A) Winding up his boost on the original atomizer (as that is the only size he has now).
B) Decreasing the rate and running the same boost, he will have more power than on fuel alone and no need to touch his already high timing settings. I don't agree, although that depend what tune he actually has. As I said when you input water injection especially with methanol you need advance to keep up the power. Go empty tank in a fuel station and tell the owner to give you his best octane fuel out there and fill up the tank and you will see why advance and high octane is important! You will run rich as hell making poor power.

~2500millibar absolute (2.5 bar *assuming he is not in Mexico!!! lets say 1.5 bar gauge pressure) is what he should go to, enough injector to do it, and on WM50 it will be safe and boost for boost it will be line ball. And ZERO risk for the end user with a broken engine bill on random internet cut and paste advise.

To save your motor and sanity I have pm'd my personal email, feel free to contact me for proper guidance.

MRX9 Check this feature out and decide for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

[RICE RACING]

MRX9 Check this feature out and decide for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

LOL I think you belong on Devils Own / AEM / *insert some other trashy forum* or similar ? LOL

I say again..... what have you done?????? sounds to me like nothing ;) You can't even state your case without contradicting yourself, he makes the same power with much higher octane and same air fuel setting !!! SAME ADVANCE!!!!!!! *my knowledge and advise did not come off the internet or from others, I tested and do my own theory, how about you???????*

Don't worry he has made his own mind up ;)

[RICE RACING]

When injecting water or meth or combined ignition advance must be increased according injection amounts. You will ALWAYS LOOSE POWER when injecting water/meth without increasing advance.

NOTES:

1 . The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque

2 . Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive

3 . Boost does not automatically mean retard your timing

4 . The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion

5 . Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder

6 . Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating

7 . Water does not burn. There will be no combusting of the hydrogen in the H2O

8 . Injection of 15% water reduces knock better than increasing fuel 4-5 Octane

9 . Injection of water reduces inlet air temperature equal more power


Check this website if any of you say otherwise http://mywintek.com/waterinjection.htm


LOL @ your "notes" = worthless ;)
Your STUPID: none qualified "notes" do nothing for the posters question nor did you pick up on the FACT that he is making exactly the same power on WM50 as he does on petrol alone if you take into account the lower boost pressure. Your post about "it should spool up faster" with pre turbo WI shows you #1 have no idea of what you are talking about and #2 have never done this let alone run a car with it!
Your 9 point plan is "retarded" Wikipedia ish in quality and context.
I suggest you maybe come back to this forum and post advice when you have actually run a water injected car and can contribute something of your own???????? just an idea ;) most who do post here have actually a mountain of experience with water injection over decades on some cases, and speak from first hand experience......... not re hashed generalities.

[RICE RACING]

First running pre-turbo with intercooler, in theory, it will not gain any IAT drop in temps.

Although with pre-turbo spool up time should be increased not decreased.

Did you test the setup on dyno or on street? If yes do a dyno map with and without water injection and compare maps. Do not care about bhp and torque since with water injection you should see a drop in power and torque because tuning would be needed.

Please post some pictures of the setup of the pre-turbo and engine bay..

Another total rubbish post!

I have many dozens........ actually probably hundred or more cars!, some of which are the fastest in their respective countries that run LARGE CHARGE COOLERS and ALL of them show reduced Inlet air temperature!!!!!!! with pre turbo water injection, @ 43psi boost some report +15 deg C reduction right after the fitment of pre turbo water injection.......... so much for your "theory" ;)

It is actually one of the first things my customers call me to talk about, that they cant believe how much cooler the temperatures are!......... they must all be wrong??????????

Many others since Adam was a boy have all run tests (their own) administering just enough WM50 to achieve performance gains, certified gains, not one off wonders or doctored results, again contradicting your nuggets of internet searched wisdom of generalities. They must all be wrong too???????

Not sure which rock you have crawled out form under but I strongly suggest you take my advise and get a car, do some testing and come here and learn from people who know about this subject ;) THEN maybe post some advise to others ????????

[RICE RACING]

It is quite easy if given enough information to work out the current thermal efficiency of the OP's engine set up.

I can tell you for a fact from my experience that the token gains from increasing ~22BTDC will be FAR MORE DETRIMENTAL to the health of his engine V's unleashing the power from extra boost pressure and the associated density increase it will offer and thus power level.

I can not overstate the DANGER is screwing around with advance to chase power especially when you are talking 98 oct petrol and the level you are starting at now.

I have worked on lots of engine types from 6.0:1 compression to 10:1 compression and all types of porting and camshaft specifications, from 98 oct petrol to methanol and let me tell you there is little gain and lots of grief in chasing token gains by using garbage advise Re ign timing and water injection crack pot internet theories by people who have only read about it rather than do it over decades.

If you provide me with pertinent details on my email or here? I will run the calculation for you.

I currently as a working teaching aid have a car at ~26% thermal efficiency and on the maximum of the standard fuel system and will fit a pre turbo WM50 system to it and show the results, that engine runs 8.5:1 CR and spark lead much less than what is being discussed here with same Lambda of the pure petrol first up test.

Excessive spark lead is the biggest killer of engines, and a very mis understood topic, and one lots of people get wrong, especially when trying to chase power gains.

[parmas]

LOL I think you belong on Devils Own / AEM / *insert some other trashy forum* or similar ? LOL

I say again..... what have you done?????? sounds to me like nothing I am no business but I tune engines from qualified experts lessons who know how to get the job done as it should ;)

You can't even state your case without contradicting yourself, he makes the same power with much higher octane and same air fuel setting !!! SAME ADVANCE!!!!!!! *my knowledge and advise did not come off the internet or from others, I tested and do my own theory, how about you???????*

Can you quote where did he ever said that he made the same power with WI. I only found 2 posts saying : " i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water"

OR

"max. tq /wo WI = 355Nm
max. tq /w WI same AFR =323Nm
max. tq /w WI -5% AFR = 331Nm"



Don't worry he has made his own mind up ;)

..........

[parmas]

It is quite easy if given enough information to work out the current thermal efficiency of the OP's engine set up.

I can tell you for a fact from my experience that the token gains from increasing ~22BTDC will be FAR MORE DETRIMENTAL to the health of his engine V's unleashing the power from extra boost pressure and the associated density increase it will offer and thus power level.

I can not overstate the DANGER is screwing around with advance to chase power especially when you are talking 98 oct petrol and the level you are starting at now.

I have worked on lots of engine types from 6.0:1 compression to 10:1 compression and all types of porting and camshaft specifications, from 98 oct petrol to methanol and let me tell you there is little gain and lots of grief in chasing token gains by using garbage advise Re ign timing and water injection crack pot internet theories by people who have only read about it rather than do it over decades.

If you provide me with pertinent details on my email or here? I will run the calculation for you.

I currently as a working teaching aid have a car at ~26% thermal efficiency and on the maximum of the standard fuel system and will fit a pre turbo WM50 system to it and show the results, that engine runs 8.5:1 CR and spark lead much less than what is being discussed here with same Lambda of the pure petrol first up test.

Excessive spark lead is the biggest killer of engines, and a very mis understood topic, and one lots of people get wrong, especially when trying to chase power gains.

From all the posts you made, you seem obsessed with me as you are showing. And if you have ever done anything in your life, why are you subscribing in all forums and wasting your time, are you a pensioner already?

[mrx79]

Hi,

Rice said that because i lost boost and if you take that into acount the Tq with WI and the same boost level as without should be the same.

Please don't get offensive. Thats not worth it, even if you have different philosophies.

I appreciate both of your helps.

[RICE RACING]

"I am no business but I tune engines from qualified experts lessons who know how to get the job done as it should"

LOL! qualified by who and what????? a two day cornflakes packet course does not count!!!!

What engines??????

What experience with water injection do you have apart from random internet quotes from crap sites????????

I await the entertainment LOL.

You just handed out false statements and generalities from dubious laughable sources, and have shown nothing of your own, you could not even pick up that he is making like for like power on the same absolute pressure.......... i think you need to go to a proper school! and be taught by real teachers, not self professed ones with cornflakes packet quality qualifications LOL.

[RICE RACING]

From all the posts you made, you seem obsessed with me ?

No however I can pick an idiot when I see one, you sir are that! Just highlighting your poor advice, dubious experience, and lack of total understanding on this topic.

You are not qualified to be handing out advice to people, especially giving them a bum steer that will end in tears, based off your obviously limited ability and experience on the said subject.

Like I said this is not a rubbish forum for re hashed 'opinions', people who hand out advise here generally have done the work themselves and can prove it, and have the back ground to comment, you have neither!

[RICE RACING]

And if you have ever done anything in your life, why are you subscribing in all forums and wasting your time, are you a pensioner already?

I've done more than you EVER WILL even if you lived to 1000 years of age!
I share my own personal knowledge and experience on selected forums cause I can! and I know what I am doing! and I happily help people out with my experience! why????????? cause I like others to enjoy the same as I have in my long journey learning all of this myself! not reading off others or rehashing some crap written by a clown who has done some 2 day course off the internet or in some pay to play crap fest that is all the rage today.

I work as a professional teacher!
I still do my business!
I still find time to share and help others!

Because I love what I have dedicated my life too, engineering and its application especially in manufacturing and internal combustion engines........ I do not live a dream on the internet like most wishing I am doing this for a living, I actually do it! Everyday I help people face to face and over the world via various mediums, people seek me out cause what I say is correct and it works! it saves them time money, and heat ache.

I am happy to be altruistic in that sense to give back to others what I have gained in my long life doing this job.........................

It shits me when I read crap posts, dolling out information that obviously is wrong and is doing a dis service to others who will be unfortunate enough to read it, especially here where we have been immune to an extent from gross generalities and spurious 'lifted' advise portraying to be 'knowledge' or otherwise.

Like I said, I'll have respect for you and what you are saying when you prove to me what you have done in this field. NOT until that time. IF however you feel the need to try to denigrate me for working out you are nothing more than a poster of generalities and someone who has obviously limited experience in this field then I will give you what you deserve, and others will benefit in knowing that they should not waste their time reading your garbage postings, be they of thin technical merit, or casting aspersions about genuinely capable people such as myself.

[parmas]

I've done more than you EVER WILL even if you lived to 1000 years of age!
I share my own personal knowledge and experience on selected forums cause I can! and I know what I am doing! and I happily help people out with my experience! why????????? cause I like others to enjoy the same as I have in my long journey learning all of this myself! not reading off others or rehashing some crap written by a clown who has done some 2 day course off the internet or in some pay to play crap fest that is all the rage today.

I work as a professional teacher!
I still do my business!
I still find time to share and help others!

Because I love what I have dedicated my life too, engineering and its application especially in manufacturing and internal combustion engines........ I do not live a dream on the internet like most wishing I am doing this for a living, I actually do it! Everyday I help people face to face and over the world via various mediums, people seek me out cause what I say is correct and it works! it saves them time money, and heat ache.

I am happy to be altruistic in that sense to give back to others what I have gained in my long life doing this job.........................

It shits me when I read crap posts, dolling out information that obviously is wrong and is doing a dis service to others who will be unfortunate enough to read it, especially here where we have been immune to an extent from gross generalities and spurious 'lifted' advise portraying to be 'knowledge' or otherwise.

Like I said, I'll have respect for you and what you are saying when you prove to me what you have done in this field. NOT until that time. IF however you feel the need to try to denigrate me for working out you are nothing more than a poster of generalities and someone who has obviously limited experience in this field then I will give you what you deserve, and others will benefit in knowing that they should not waste their time reading your garbage postings, be they of thin technical merit, or casting aspersions about genuinely capable people such as myself.

My job is not a teacher but an enthusiast tuner who have years of experience on tuning engines. But I am not here to judge and play roll the dice here. I don't think I am a GOD who knows everthing cause I am here to increase my knowledge and to give mine. No tuner works the same that doesn't mean they are all wrong.

Now for the fact you are a teacher with 1000years of experience and willing to give your 2 cents for all sakes out here, give us your good opinion on what a good man need to Do/Consider/Check to make his own tune for the first time using water injection. Let's name the article : HOW TO PROPERLY TUNE FOR WATER INJECTION by Rice Racing and you could manage a sticky

[RICE RACING]

My job is not a teacher but an enthusiast tuner who have years of experience on tuning engines. But I am not here to judge and play roll the dice here. I don't think I am a GOD who knows everthing cause I am here to increase my knowledge and to give mine. No tuner works the same that doesn't mean they are all wrong.

Now for the fact you are a teacher with 1000years of experience and willing to give your 2 cents for all sakes out here, give us your good opinion on what a good man need to Do/Consider/Check to make his own tune for the first time using water injection. Let's name the article : HOW TO PROPERLY TUNE FOR WATER INJECTION by Rice Racing and you could manage a sticky

Don't come here and stir shit: (we have a great place here, has been that way for a LONG time).

Hand out advice if you personally have it and are capable of backing it up, it is a simple rule. That applies to you me, Richard, anyone, that is how we operate here.
No one starts an argument or makes blanket statements, if you have something of merit then share it and post it, if you want to contribute, this is not hard to do.

I do not make a point of sticking my nose in all the threads or 'stalking people' I am too good for that, and too busy, I only came here as I was asked to by the original poster. (no commercial involvement at all *for disclosure*)

If you can help him then go ahead, I did read your topic on your 300bhp car where you are trialing some items and documenting them, keep it up and share your 'experience', I suggest to you then hand out advice and guidance, it will be more worth while to your self and others reading it.

[RICE RACING]

Hi,

Rice said that because i lost boost and if you take that into acount the Tq with WI and the same boost level as without should be the same.

Please don't get offensive. Thats not worth it, even if you have different philosophies.

I appreciate both of your helps.

Thanks for sharing your set up with me, it's true these days I don't really doll out advice as I used to do for free, and its pretty rare for me to post here as I use to do so fairly frequently. I'm happy to help you out and look forward to an e-mail of the updates and retests you will conduct on your car.

I am doing up a general 'advice' type material resource where it broaches many topics around performance vehicles (running a course on this @ the Institute I teach at) one workshop dyno mule (2lt turbo 6 cylinder) I will fit up a pre turbo water injection system (hopefully this week) though finding time to complete everything is always a challenge!!!

This test vehicle is fitted out with its own Race Logic VBOX mini and mini input module and I'll take some logs of various basic parameters along with dyno outputs associated, in the last month have done about 10 different engine maps, and now she is at its maximum on the standard fuel system, in this cars case I am fitting water injection (with WM50) to extend the power potential while keeping the engine still safe, as its a teaching aid she cops lots of abuse and needs to be ultra reliable. This car will be interesting as its a more common power level and set up for a majority of users (~350bhp *engine power*) and sane boost of 2000millibar absolute. Allot of similar issues you and my mate parmas will face I hope to cover and document.... since its a teaching based learning resource I'll be happy to share parts if not all of it here for anyone interested.

Till then, good luck with your testing and I will help when I can over email.

[parmas]

Peter, you used the word "HELP" many times here in this thread but in all the posts you made in this thread you showed no real help at all but more like NOooo don't do it! It will ruin your motor!

Now we are all scared not to even try to put our eyes on the engine bay cause we believed in what is going to be a dead end.

What do we do now, since our lovely teacher doesn't doll out advices for free as he used to do?

Do I need to pay a dollar a day to read this forum or maybe it's more worth it to give him a call and make me the day!

Sorry peter, but you are the one who should be ashamed off doing business on a public forum to reach to customers for free advertising. If I am mad as you said before, then do us a favor and post the general rules to detail how to generally tune or troubleshoot water injection systems. That 20 year knowledge would better be used under one thread for all the people in this forum.

IF NOT... then here we are trying to learn while you try to scare for a ?$ a day !

[UCTURBO]

Isnt the main reason you go to WI to increase boost or timing? Not trying to cause shit, its just what Ive always thought? As whenever I give an engine water without more advance or boost, it makes less power? But with both it makes lots more power :) Cheers

[Grant M]

I think Peter has said that with water you increase boost and there is no need to mess with timing to gain power loss IF your ignition is nice and powerful.

I may be wrong

[parmas]

I think Peter has said that with water you increase boost and there is no need to mess with timing to gain power loss IF your ignition is nice and powerful.

I may be wrong

My opinion as a tuner is that when working with engines that want to implement water injection in their setup they have to have a base ingition/fuel tuneup without water injection first. When Max power and torque is achieved without any knock then water injection is intiated.

Water injection is turned on and adjusted as of what the setup needs. Increase boost as the setup needs and when all adjustment is done then ignition timing must be increased 1-3psi further when water injection is initiated accordingly.

If ignition timing is not changed, engine will give better power/torque on top end because of higher boost. If ignition timing is adjusted from turn on of water injection till peak power will result that you gained power/torque from that point till peak power + power increase of boost pressure

[mrx79]

Hi,
just want to give some more updates. After doing some calculations of my WM flow:

until now 350ccm Nozzle: W/F:60%@4000rpm -> 22%@8000rpm
new 140cc Nozzle: W/F:24%@4000rpm -> 9%@8000rpm

i decided to switch to a 140cc Nozzle.
Also switched from 100% Water (frist tests with the 350cc nozzle) to a WM50% by mass mixture.

Results so far (with tune basicaly untuched: AFR=0,8-0,85 / Advance: ~21-22?BTDC @ 16psi)
i experience a similar power loss with the 140cc nozzle as from the 350cc nozzle against the non-WI baseline run.

I then did some calculations on vapour pressure of water&methanol and checked this against my compressor efficiancy. This showes that my compressor is very effective and to keep the water/meth in steam form if once evaporated i have to run at least 18-19psi of boost to keep up the temperature with the rairing pressure after the turbo.
This also not includes the temperature drop from the evaporation.

My calculations showed a too much amount of WM with the 350cc nozzle, so the power loss could be explained, but with the 140cc nozzle i'am in a good ballpark i guess and i'am also below 100% satuation so theoreticaly all the WM can evaporate if enough heat is present.

With this results i'am currently thinking if my setup is just too efficiant for pre-compressor injection - can that be the case?

That something is happening when activating WM is for sure, but what causes the power loss?!

When i assume (just a guess) that most of the WM get's into the combustion chamber unevaporated it will evaporate there under the huge pressure and temps and reduces temps there by a "huge" amount.

Methanol burn slower then gasoline. Water cools the combustion chamber. This would lead to the suggestion that i need more timing. But in fact, i'am still very uncompfortable with even higher amounts of timing.

But this maybe can be a hint that at my current power levels, i just don't need WM injection?!?
By the way, i have to add: i'am running 98roz fuel and the basic compression ratio of my engine is 8.5:1, so fairly low.

[parmas]

Hi,

until now 350ccm Nozzle: W/F:60%@4000rpm -> 22%@8000rpm
new 140cc Nozzle: W/F:24%@4000rpm -> 9%@8000rpm

i decided to switch to a 140cc Nozzle.
Also switched from 100% Water (frist tests with the 350cc nozzle) to a WM50% by mass mixture.

Results so far (with tune basicaly untuched: AFR=0,8-0,85 / Advance: ~21-22?BTDC @ 16psi) DOES THIS AFR KEEPS THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT WATER/INJECTION?

i experience a similar power loss with the 140cc nozzle as from the 350cc nozzle against the non-WI baseline run. ARE YOU USING A DYNO? IF YES POST DYNO RESULTS.

I then did some calculations on vapour pressure of water&methanol and checked this against my compressor efficiancy. This showes that my compressor is very effective and to keep the water/meth in steam form if once evaporated i have to run at least 18-19psi of boost to keep up the temperature with the rairing pressure after the turbo.
This also not includes the temperature drop from the evaporation.
PLEASE SHARE THESE CALCULATIONS

My calculations showed a too much amount of WM with the 350cc nozzle, so the power loss could be explained, but with the 140cc nozzle i'am in a good ballpark i guess and i'am also below 100% satuation so theoreticaly all the WM can evaporate if enough heat is present.

PLEASE SHARE YOUR CALCULATIONS

With this results i'am currently thinking if my setup is just too efficiant for pre-compressor injection - can that be the case?

That something is happening when activating WM is for sure, but what causes the power loss?! DUE TO SAME IGNITION TIMING VALUES

When i assume (just a guess) that most of the WM get's into the combustion chamber unevaporated it will evaporate there under the huge pressure and temps and reduces temps there by a "huge" amount.

YOUR GUESS IS RIGHT BUT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ALONE = MORE POWER

Methanol burn slower then gasoline. Water cools the combustion chamber. This would lead to the suggestion that i need more timing. But in fact, i'am still very uncompfortable with even higher amounts of timing.

WATER INJECTION IS NORMALLY IMPLEMENTED ON AFTERMARKET ECUs. WHY? BECAUSE THEY CAN HAVE FULL CONTROL OVER FUEL AND IGNITION TIMING. IF YOU ADD A MIXTURE YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT THE ENGINE TUNE FOR IT NO MATTER IF IT IS STRAIGHT WATER OR METH. I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WATER INJECTION ALONE WITHOUT TUNING THE BASE MAP IS A POWER KILLER

But this maybe can be a hint that at my current power levels, i just don't need WM injection?!?
By the way, i have to add: i'am running 98roz fuel and the basic compression ratio of my engine is 8.5:1, so fairly low.

YOUR COMPRESSION IS LOW, SO YOU HAVE A CLEAR RANGE TO PLAY WITH ON BOOST. DO A WIDE OPEN THROTTLE RUN AND SWITCH OVER EXACTLY AFTER. CHECK PLUGS AND IF IT IS BLACK YOU ARE EITHER RUNNING RICH OR IGNITION TIMING IS FAR TOO RETARDED. IF YOUR FUEL RATIO WHILE ON BOOST IS 0.85, THAN TIMING IS THE PROBLEM. IF YOU DECIDE TO INCREASE TIMING, FIRST ENRICH THE MIXTURE TO 0.75 THEN INCREASE TIMING ONLY THE LOADS WHERE WI IS TURNED ON. YOU MUST REALIZE THAT WHEN INCREASING TIMING ENGINE SHOULD RUN LEANER ALTHOUGH YOU INCREASED FUEL

[Flr Power]

YOUR COMPRESSION IS LOW, SO YOU HAVE A CLEAR RANGE TO PLAY WITH ON BOOST. DO A WIDE OPEN THROTTLE RUN AND SWITCH OVER EXACTLY AFTER. CHECK PLUGS AND IF IT IS BLACK YOU ARE EITHER RUNNING RICH OR IGNITION TIMING IS FAR TOO RETARDED. IF YOUR FUEL RATIO WHILE ON BOOST IS 0.85, THAN TIMING IS THE PROBLEM. IF YOU DECIDE TO INCREASE TIMING, FIRST ENRICH THE MIXTURE TO 0.75 THEN INCREASE TIMING ONLY THE LOADS WHERE WI IS TURNED ON. YOU MUST REALIZE THAT WHEN INCREASING TIMING ENGINE SHOULD RUN LEANER ALTHOUGH YOU INCREASED FUEL

No, no and no. Do not follow parmas "tuning" method. This is clear evidence he needs to get the straight fact. This is old school "tuning".

mrx79, you are not really losing HP with WI and 21-22?BTDC@16psi should be plenty enough timing. With you current power level, you may not need WI if the fuel octane number is good where you live but the set up is getting close to use it.

If you need more power then raise boost to about 20psi, run that 350ccm nozzle and start with low ignition like 12?BTDC and raise it on the dyno run after run until you get to a plateau (while making sure the engine does not detonate) then back up 1-2? to have a super safe tune. Also, make sure you set up and test the WI failsafe properly. This is the most important thing to do unless you do not mind rebuilding.

[mrx79]

Hallo Flr Power,

thanks for your reply to my thread. It's been quite for a while because i had some trouble with my ignition system and afterwards i invested a lot of time in finetuning my new injectors which i had to be done first.

I hope i will manage it this year to do some more tests. But i will get back to it.

Hopefully then with a new/stronger ignition system and will try different thinks, step after step.

[parmas]

No, no and no. Do not follow parmas "tuning" method. This is clear evidence he needs to get the straight fact. This is old school "tuning". Maybe it is old school but sure it works by facts

mrx79, you are not really losing HP with WI and 21-22?BTDC@16psi should be plenty enough timing. How could you tell 21-22 is good? Cams/compression/plug heat range/coil dwell/charge time/combustion chamber/engine load/turbo/air temperature/engine temperature! These altogether has an algorithm of ? timing an engine needs

With you current power level, you may not need WI if the fuel octane number is good where you live but the set up is getting close to use it. He may not need water injection, but surely there is always an advantage to use water injection. Water injection + METH, is purely an air cooler + octane booster. Altogether need ignition advance to get the power. If he is running 16psi with a 15C air temperature @ 7000rpm maybe yes he does not need water injection at all!

If you need more power then raise boost to about 20psi, run that 350ccm nozzle and start with low ignition like 12?BTDC and raise it on the dyno run after run until you get to a plateau (while making sure the engine does not detonate) then back up 1-2? to have a super safe tune.Have you ever heard of engines tuned "safely" on dyno and ruined at the first run on track?

Also, make sure you set up and test the WI failsafe properly. This is the most important thing to do unless you do not mind rebuilding.AGREED THIS IS IMPORTANT AND most of us forget to take care of prevention

Cheers....