Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers [Archive] - Page 3

parmas

24-11-2014, 08:07 PM

Thank you so much, that would be a great option, the one small issue is that where the gold pipe ends and meets the turbo inlet, there is another 90 degree bend within the turbo's compressor housing.

Testing is your friend.

Begin with the smallest possible nozzle - setting injection to begin as late as possible ( preferably after 10psi for sure)

HYDE16

24-11-2014, 08:11 PM

I have an Aquamist .3mm jet (smallest) ready to go with an adjustable boost switch from 1psi-25psi, I want to test at like 20psi to see.

Flr Power

25-11-2014, 05:51 PM

Follow the installation manual and you won't go wrong. Inject the recommended W/M injection based on injectors fuel flow. Most of the time, spraying past 10 psi is too late...

HYDE16

25-11-2014, 07:15 PM

Follow the installation manual and you won't go wrong. Inject the recommended W/M injection based on injectors fuel flow. Most of the time, spraying past 10 psi is too late...

I have a full HFS-4 system already setup and dialed in with direct port and post intercooler. This pre-turbo is an auxiliary setup for high boost (20-29psi).

Richard L

03-02-2015, 10:55 AM

Do you notice and improvement?

HYDE16

03-02-2015, 02:55 PM

Do you notice and improvement?

Hey Richard. I got the bung welded in place and the intake pipe finished. Got my solenoid, wiring, .3mm jet and a custom bracket made. I'm currently waiting on a special OEM style switch and warmer weather to get this installed finally. :)

Richard L

04-02-2015, 09:46 AM

I am looking to the update.

HYDE16

06-03-2015, 06:39 PM

Ok, quick update, it's been in the 20's here in New Jersey but I've been forcing myself to sit in the garage with a space heater to get this work done. I ended up ripping out my tank and pump from the trunk and I still have to install an inline filter and properly mount eveything.

As of last night I finally finished my new custom layout in the engine bay, complete with custom fabricated plate and new lines. Please let me know what you think of my layout based on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_zlClcNTm4&feature=youtu.be

-Due to the length of the wiring harness, the FAV has to stay on the passenger side of the car (see beginning of the video)
-4mm line runs across the front of the car above the radiator/fans to the drivers side
-4mm line runs under the custom fabricated plate to a 4mm T-fitting.
-The first end runs to the .6mm CVJ post intercooler for cooling
-The second end runs to the inlet on the 6-port distribution manifold
-The top four ports run under the MAF housing/air filter to the four direct port .6mm CVJs
-The fifth port loops to the solenoid (controlled by switch in cabin) which runs to the .3mm pre-turbo jet

Can you tell me if this looks good functionally? I know it's a TON of 4mm line after the FAV but I can't get the FAV wiring harness any longer to mount it on the custom fabricated plate along with the 6-port distribution manifold and solenoid. I would love to move it there but the harness is not long enough. I will data log the car on my water methanol software to see if there is any issue with flow or timing correction due to the added complexity of the system but at a pump pressure of 185psi with 5 total CVJs at 15psi cracking pressure, I'm hoping that an increase in GAIN or THRESH may help out.

Really looking forward to any feedback before data logging the pre-turbo jet.

Richard L

06-03-2015, 07:53 PM

Looks great with all those sleeved lines. I notice a Coolingmist valve in the loop, what is it doing there?

The FAV and flow sensor was is about 2.5M long, about 8-feet, so how are they routed?

HYDE16

06-03-2015, 08:46 PM

Looks great with all those sleeved lines. I notice a Coolingmist valve in the loop, what is it doing there?

The FAV and flow sensor was is about 2.5M long, about 8-feet, so how are they routed?

Hey Richard thank you so much. It took a while but it's the finished effect I'm after. The CoolingMist solenoid was a leftover part which I decided to use basically as an on/off valve for the pre-turbo .3mm jet. I can open this solenoid from a button inside the cabin, basically allowing me to choose when I want to use pre-turbo injection and inititally to be able to run data logs back to back to test with and without pre-turbo injection.

In the GTI they are routed through the glove box, firewall and then alongside the passenger side fender. I have some extra wire bundled up but I don't think it will reach around the front of the engine bay, I may have to try and re-route through the firewall. Ideally I will find a way to get the FAV on the driver's side on this custom fabricated plate to keep it all together.

The main question I have now is do you foresee any issues the way it's routed now? Pressure drop, leaks, bursts, lower flow rate?

Richard L

06-03-2015, 10:31 PM

Hey Richard thank you so much. It took a while but it's the finished effect I'm after. The CoolingMist solenoid was a leftover part which I decided to use basically as an on/off valve for the pre-turbo .3mm jet. I can open this solenoid from a button inside the cabin, basically allowing me to choose when I want to use pre-turbo injection and inititally to be able to run data logs back to back to test with and without pre-turbo injection.

In the GTI they are routed through the glove box, firewall and then alongside the passenger side fender. I have some extra wire bundled up but I don't think it will reach around the front of the engine bay, I may have to try and re-route through the firewall. Ideally I will find a way to get the FAV on the driver's side on this custom fabricated plate to keep it all together.

The main question I have now is do you foresee any issues the way it's routed now? Pressure drop, leaks, bursts, lower flow rate?

I cannot see any issues with long hose runs, as long as the debris is CVJ is debris free. If there is a leak developed on one CVJ, there is a risk of the vacuum pulling the the fluid out of the other hoses. If the hose interconnections amongst the FAV, hex manifold and the cVJ are kept to a minimum, there will not be too much fluid there to be emptied.

We are not talking about any risk of a hydrolock, but it will cause a slight delay on the next injection event where the hoses has to be refilled before pressure is being build up.

HYDE16

07-03-2015, 12:40 AM

I cannot see any issues with long hose runs, as long as the debris is CVJ is debris free. If there is a leak developed on one CVJ, there is a risk of the vacuum pulling the the fluid out of the other hoses. If the hose interconnections amongst the FAV, hex manifold and the cVJ are kept to a minimum, there will not be too much fluid there to be emptied.

We are not talking about any risk of a hydrolock, but it will cause a slight delay on the next injection event where the hoses has to be refilled before pressure is being build up.

Thank you Richard, that makes me feel a lot better about this setup the way it is. Next step is to data log to see if my settings require a change due to the possible delay on the next injection event. If so I'll adjust via the HFS-4 board. If it requires a good amount of adjustment I'll re-locate the FAV to be inline with the manifold. I'm really excited to run this setup this season and to finally report back on pre-turbo injection.

parmas

07-03-2015, 06:01 PM

Nice HYDE16! Very tidy and clean.

That is lots of piping there.

What is the pump's flowrate and pressure rating?

What about the check valves, where are they?

HYDE16

07-03-2015, 10:24 PM

Nice HYDE16! Very tidy and clean.

That is lots of piping there.

What is the pump's flowrate and pressure rating?

What about the check valves, where are they?

Flow rate I need to recalculate based on the jet choices.
Pump pressure was tested at 185psi pre-FAV.
The check valves are in the jets, they are check valve jets (5 are and 1 is controlled by solenoid) with 15psi cracking pressure.

parmas

08-03-2015, 10:29 AM

Flow rate I need to recalculate based on the jet choices.
Pump pressure was tested at 185psi pre-FAV.
The check valves are in the jets, they are check valve jets (5 are and 1 is controlled by solenoid) with 15psi cracking pressure.

Presently I am running an AEM injection system of with a pump rating of 150psi with two nozzles post/pre 350cc x 2.

AEM advise to not run more than two nozzles on one single pump due to possible pressure loss. In your case you are using 6 nozzles - 4 Direct Port / 1 Post Turbo / 1 Pre-Turbo.

If it was me I would :

1. Try the system off the car
2. Connect all 6 nozzles using the same nozzle rating
3. Direct all nozzles each into a plastic can
4. Trigger the system by a test button or by pressurize the vacuum tubing with a hand pump
5. Leave it running until half bottles are full
6. Switch off the system and leave the mist around the can settle
7. Visually check differences between each container
8. If all the same, empty the liquid and retry for two times to check consistency of the system

With this method above you will make sure :

1. The system is working equally on all nozzles
2. Visually certain that all nozzles are seeing good mist
3. Visually certain that there are no leaks before tuning

To make this test I would recommend to use only water although that is your choice, just remember misting methanol into plastic containers is possibly dangerous and toxic to breath so keep yourself safe ;)

Flr Power

08-03-2015, 03:21 PM

AEM advise to not run more than two nozzles on one single pump due to possible pressure loss. ;)

The number of nozzles is irrelevant as long as you do not exceed the flow limit of the pump itself.

HYDE16

08-03-2015, 11:28 PM

The number of nozzles is irrelevant as long as you do not exceed the flow limit of the pump itself.

I've seen other Aquamist systems with check valves and as high as 7 jets on 1 pump (pre-turbo, post turbo, pre throttle body, four direct port).

Rich what's your take on the following jets at 185psi pump pressure?
Four .6mm CVJs direct port
One .4mm CVJ post intercooler/pre-throttle body
One .3mm solenoid controlled jet pre-turbo

Richard L

09-03-2015, 12:38 AM

This set up is pretty popular on the Mazda and Focus platform. But not as large as your 4x 0.6mm. It allows good fuel supplement on those DI engine without any aftermarket large injectors available.

Certainly a five-jet set makes total sense, Good fuel distribution and ample charge air cooling.

The pump can be wound up to 225psi but will compromise the linearity of the system. As the flow increase, the pressure will drop much quicker than 160psi. It is the same as a tall water tank and and short tank with the same capacity, water level drops faster on a taller tank.

You can a adjust it to 185- 200psi to offset some manifold pressure. Beyond this is not acceptable.

Do you have a logs to post up here? I like to see the STFT.

HYDE16

09-03-2015, 01:44 PM

Thank you Richard, I remember we needed to raise the pump pressure to 185psi to meet the demand for this many jets. I have since decreased my 5th post intercooler jet from .6mm to .4mm this weekend since I've been burning out MAP sensors from too much direct contact. When I originally logged the .4mm to .6mm jet change in this location I didn't see any further decrease in intake air temps so at this point the larger jet could have added octane but no more cooling. Now I'm back to .4mm to slow the MAP sensor failure rate. Now, the addition of the 6th pre-turbo .3mm jet is solenoid controlled and will only be on here and there when I turn it on from the cabin. The 185 pump pressure should still be plenty for this configuratation of four .6mm jets, one .4mm jet and the occasional one .3mm jet but I may have to tweak the HFS-4 trimmers a tad based on the software demand. I don't want to have to max the pump out any further for reliability/longetivity.

I didn't run any logs yet as I am currently re-configuring my tank with an in-line master shut off valve (for when I have to quick disconnect and remove the tank from the trunk) and micron filter pre-pump. Today I plan on installing the tank and pump in the car and can finally turn the entire system back on again after the winter months. If all goes well I'll have prelim data logs this week.

What did you want to see specifically Rich? What is STFT?

Flr Power

09-03-2015, 04:03 PM

STFT = Short Term Fuel Trims
Best to be around 5% (negative or positive)

HYDE16

09-03-2015, 04:06 PM

Ok I'll take a look without the pre-turbo jet then with.

Richard L

09-03-2015, 05:37 PM

Is the weather still cold in New Jersey?

HYDE16

09-03-2015, 06:15 PM

Not today, a beautiful sunny 45 degree day. This thread got me pumped up to finish the install, just mounted the tank and pump, connected the level sensor connector, fluid lines and pump connector. Moved the jumper to DHB and turned the gauge on, the entire system is alive again! Time to go out for a ride a little later today!

jmlegacy

29-03-2015, 01:14 PM

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6850333663_8c1e98f17e_b.jpg

Found this dyno at this location (http://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pre-turbo-wi-vs-post-ic-wi-dyno-test-results-987107/)

A 315 cc nozzle pre turbo and a 130 cc nozzle post ic. Nothing else was done.

His spool was later, but his torque extended more. Is this the SHIFT of the compressor map that is talked about?

Flr Power

29-03-2015, 06:48 PM

If anything, the nozzles position should be reversed. Also to make it a fair comparison, we would need more data like boost pressure to even make a call...

HYDE16

30-03-2015, 12:22 AM

Man I can't wait to get on the dyno and even run some data logs around my .3mm pre-turbo setup. Just got a new clutch installed, need to break it in before I can really run 3rd gear full throttle logs. 450 miles to go.

parmas

31-03-2015, 09:55 AM

If anything, the nozzles position should be reversed. Also to make it a fair comparison, we would need more data like boost pressure to even make a call...

On his website there is the Pre-Turbo-WI-Dyno-Test.zip attachment. In it there are .txt files that contain all data.

I sorted out the data into an excel file and removed the insignificant data.

Between 4250RPM and 5250RPM Post turbo map had more boost compared to Pre-Turbo and continues like that till redline but after 5250RPM PRE-Turbo makes more power and torque

Could be turbo efficiency ?

rotrex

03-04-2015, 09:31 AM

so, just activate injection past 5200 rpm...
I found .3mm pr compressor (Rotrex) having little effect.
.7 mm worked well.
I use 4x 0.3mm direct port now.

In genera found the more water methanol I injected the more power I was able to extract.
Sweet spot seem to be around 300 ml/min for my engine flowing about 1.5l of fuel per minute. injecting more adds not enough to justify the extra consumption.

HYDE16

03-04-2015, 02:04 PM

I'll be testing a .3mm jet post MAF (3 feed from turbo compressor), boost activated at 5psi.

jmlegacy

14-04-2015, 08:42 PM

If anything, the nozzles position should be reversed. Also to make it a fair comparison, we would need more data like boost pressure to even make a call...

That's my thinking too. I'm actually thinking of doing a two stage with a ~50cc nozzle pre turbo @4psi and second stage @18psi (190cc).

Maybe 50cc not enough? I just need it to help me launch my autobox better.

RICE RACING

09-06-2018, 08:38 PM

This just in from my customer with RRWEP140 water injected 4cyl Volvo, power ~1000bhp

"Hi Mate,

First track test today. First run 309 kph @ 2,2 bar boost and second run 324 kph @ 2,6 bar boost and fastest speed for cars..:) I think 340 is reachable with this set up.

No engine problems this time and WI rocked...:) Couple of engine damages occured, one 5 cyl Audi and brand new Ford Focus RS. No happy faces from those guys but no WI either..😋 Below video from first run.

https://youtu.be/ZjCg1O2Tobc
"

redvictor

10-02-2019, 05:22 PM

It's been a while! I didn't even remember posting in this thread 14 years ago! I'm still messing around with turbo set ups, although they have grown a little since the early days. I re read this whole thread through to familiarise myself with findings and data from the past. Unfortunately for me there is nothing to compare to what we are trying to achieve.
I'd like to ask a couple of things from the technical guys here. I worked out that my total CFM capability of the engine/turbo combination is 5803cfm. This is an 8.6ltr V8 with twin 102mm turbos and based on 85% VE.
The system i'm using is a home brewed boost pressurised bottle with a 3 way switched by the ECU solenoid. The reasoning for this is keep it simple to find out how good it works first. 62psi of boost is the current level we are at.
This is being done for one reason. IAT's are 380f on meth with no intercooler. There is no room for the latter, so we figured this would be cheap and quick method to test.
The nozzles are aquamist 1.2mm check valve ones (440cc/min @ 60psi) mounted 1 inch from the compressor wheel. This was figured by holding the nozzle in my hand at 60psi, and "measuring" the cone. That distance makes the cone the approximate size of the inlet (102mm).

Obviously all of this is guesswork,and our R+D will tell us if it works or not. As helpful as Richard L is he can't tell us what we need to use as he has no data to back it up.We have plenty of sensors to know if our set up works or not.
It would be interesting to know if the nozzles we have now will be in the 2 to 3 % range, or will we be pissing in the wind...
Any tech guys left on this thread?