failsafe problems ::cause found::

[chris-mr2]

Just installed a hfs-3 system and having failsafe issues
After starting the car the system starts up as it should and dispays everything on the gauge, the green idc led on the controller flikers with engine rpm.
purged the system and linked "sys" and it sprays just fine, test drive done and it also sprays and shows bars on gauge.
but the failsafe light flashes all the time even though the tank is full??
any help would be appreciated

[Richard L]

Can you put the jumper link to FDC (use the PRK) and tell me how many bars are displaced on the gauge as you go WOT.

One question, do you use low impedance injectors?

[chris-mr2]

Ummmm id have to look back at receipts ive got aftermarket 890cc injectors, 90% sure there still low impedance
cant go and do wot right now cos its raining cats and dogs! But with fdc linked at idle its shows no bars on the gauge, if i rev the engine to around 4k all i get is the s flashing??

[Richard L]

If the system is not seeing fuel flow, you probably have low impedance inject or you have a resistor-pack in series with your low impedance.

Before you do the following, check out which is which and post here.


If you have low impedance injectors without resistor-pack, you need to use the green harness.

Green harness: Rewire the red and green directly to you injectors.
Grey harness: rewire the red wire to a 12V source at "pre-crank" and "run" key position.


Richard

[chris-mr2]

Ok thanks for that, ive definitely got a injector resitor pack because I had to buy a new one lol, ive wired red directly into injector + and green directly into injector - using the grey ecu harness

[Richard L]

In that case. It is a simple fix.

Relocate the red wire (grey harness) to the other side of the resistor pack where all the resistors are tired together.

[chris-mr2]

Ah ok, so just wire into any injector + signal from ecu to resistor pack not resistor pack to injector like ive done?
thanks for your support big help!

[Richard L]

Yes, it should fix your problem and the S led will not be flashing at high load.

The red wire has to have a stable 12V. If you wire it on the injector+ side, the 12V is partially pulsed. More so at high load.

[chris-mr2]

Ok brilliant, I'll re wire during the week and try again :-)

[Richard L]

This is not a failsafe problem.

The failsafe has identified a problem.

[chris-mr2]

I have now moved red wire to ecu harness and tested, still getting same issues but now it wont spray*whilst driving, with the jumper in f-idc the gauge showed 2 or 3 bars on half ish load still nothing on idle, didn't get a chance to do wot, but the f-idc led still flashes

do I need to relocate the green wire from grey ecu loom to a ground source or should it stay on the negative wire of the injector plug?

[Richard L]

I think the wiring is now correct. Can you clarify jumper on f-idc, do you mean FDC?

I think it is important to see what the bar reading is at WOT with the FDC linked.

[chris-mr2]

Sorry yes mean jumper on FDC, I'll go out again and get a wot reading before I go any further, if it comes out low will I need to solder x1.5 possibly?
I have gone from 540cc standard injectors to over 800cc ones.

[Richard L]

If the FDC only shows 4 bars max at WOT, you then need to solder x1.5. If you are not confident in soldering, i can do it for you, just send the controller to me.

What is the estimated power of your car? I can guess the FDC% is you are concerned doing WOT on public roads.

3200cc/min is good for 550-600bhp.

[chris-mr2]

Ok thanks, I'll have a look at the board and see what I think about doing it myself

only running around 400bhp but engine hasnt run all winter so just easing it in really!

I'll get a passenger to read gauge properly as I do wot and see what results I get, ideally do I want all bars to light?

[chris-mr2]

Also running satand alone hydra nemesis ecu if that makes any difference?

[Richard L]

Thanks for a much needed info, That makes a great deal of differences.

The Hydra has "peak and hold" driver (AFAIK), resistor pack is no longer needed. Please check and confirm. If you can not using a resistor pack, the F-IDC signal will be "peak and hold".

All you need to do is use the green harness, connect the red and green wire across the injector.

[chris-mr2]

Im not sure how i could check that, the ecu plugs directly into original loom so the wiring to injectors is standard

So ill be using the green "user" harness to read fdc?

[Richard L]

Not yet. Not until you have done the FDC/wot test.

One thing you can confirm for me: are you using the resistor pack for sure?

[chris-mr2]

I cant see how im not unless im missing something, the hydra was almost a plug and play, no wiring was changed or altered

So the injectors are still receiving the signals from ecu through the resistor pack?
I can ring my mappers and find out for sure, but I know 100% that the resistor pack is still there and wired in

[Richard L]

There are a few uncertainties for me:

1. After you changed the fuel injectors, it also alter the resistor pack circuit unless the previous injectors are also low impedance.

2. After the Hydra, it could also change how the hydra see the new injector + resistor pack.

To clarify all this for me, you need to do the FDC reading so I know what the HFS3 is seeing.

[chris-mr2]

Did some driving this afternoon heres what I found with FDC jumper in-

Failsafe light constant
ticking from controller (relay I assume)
Closed throttle idle nothing illuminated
as throttle opens "s" flashes then turns solid and bars start to show
"B" seemed to flash as I was maneuvering
did WOT in second and third and was able to show 6/7 bars depending on how long I kept my foot down, looks like if I had enough space I could fill all 8

have had nozle tapped into a container and it did srpay slightly

[Richard L]

It looks pretty good. You are using 60-70% of fuel. The system can make up the rest by the "GAIN" trimmer on the controller.

OK we can move on from here:
(after removing the FDC link)

Please tell tell me of the following:

On the controller:
1. The setting of the "THRES" and "GAIN" trimmer
2. Size of your nozzle.

On the gauge:
3. SC, WH and WH. positions

[chris-mr2]

I have many nozzles, am using a 0.6 until I have it mapped when I may go up to 0.9

All of my trim settings both on the controller and gauge are at 12 oclock default setting

[Richard L]

The 0.6mm jet will not be showing on the gauge until you have solder linked the flow table. The default flow table of for 2 jets.

I suggest trying the following settings first:

WL/WL.......fully CCW/CW
SC ........ fully clockwise
THRES ..........9am.
GAIN .......... 3pm

Clip the jets on the screen so you can see the spray.

[Richard L]

You will get a failsafe problem since the jet is far from the correct flow table.

[chris-mr2]

Ok I'll try those settings tomorrow, thanks

I chose 0.6 because I dont want to add to much water before its mapped for it?
Is this not an issue? Can change jet size if it would make things easier

im only running one jet, about 6 inches before throttle body

[Richard L]

Yes, changing the jet size to something like 0.9mm will be better. I think flow table 2 (default) can read this quite happily. No need to solder link.

It is unlikely the temperature will drop below zero so 100% water will be fine. Clip it on the windscreen first.

[chris-mr2]

Set up trims today and done testing
had to turn "sc" on the gauge counter clockwise a few clicks to get flow in middle

failsafe light still on
upon build up of boost/FDC the failsafe light turns of and bars fill up to 4/5 and the "b" lights up
the spray from jet is good and increases well with boost/FDC
As I return to normal driving the failsafe light turns back on

[Richard L]

Is the failsafe led on all the time or just come on when spraying?

Just to be clear:

Are you saying the failsafe lled is on all the time and goes off under boost?

Failsafe trip = both yellow leds
Water level trip = one yellow led.

Let me know which the above.

[chris-mr2]

Leds im getting-

W-injection light constant blue

W-level light constant yellow when jet is not spraying

W-level light off when jet is spraying

Thanks

[Richard L]

How old is this system? It appear the gauge is v10 or v11.

Can you unplug blue harness and tell me if the failsafe light still on?

[chris-mr2]

Not sure what version it is, ive had it a fair while now on another car, ive got a blue circuit board that says HFS3-PWM

Taking out the blue harness appears to make no difference to w-level light being illuminated

[chris-mr2]

HFS3-V1K ISS1 L2 printed on back of board

[Richard L]

When you first post said you just installed the HFS3, I though it will be the lastest v3. Hence I was confused with your description. I should have asked you first before diagnosing the problem.

OK, lets start again.

Is this a brand new system out of a box?

[chris-mr2]

It was, I took it of my old car and was in storage for a while, ive bought new harnesses, jets, water lines, filters and fav before the instal on my current car

[chris-mr2]

Not sure what version it is, ive had it a fair while now on another car, ive got a blue circuit board that says HFS3-PWM

Taking out the blue harness appears to make no difference to w-level light being illuminated

[chris-mr2]

Not sure what version it is, ive had it a fair while now on another car, ive got a blue circuit board that says HFS3-PWM

Taking out the blue harness appears to make no difference to w-level light being illuminated

[Richard L]

V1 has a blue circuit board.

I think it would be easier you can make a trip to us (East Sussex) I will be able to test out the controller for you. It is not easy to pin point a problem if the system has been in service for a while and re-installed into another car.

[chris-mr2]

Ok that would work fine for me, when is best for you?

[Richard L]

Next week except Wednesday?

After 11am til 3pm?

[chris-mr2]

Ok thursday or friday will probably be best for me, would 2pm give you enough time?
Or is earlier easier for you?

Thanks again

[Richard L]

This is perfect. 2 pm is good.

[chris-mr2]

Ok great, I'll find out tomorrow for sure but looks like friday at two will work for me

[Richard L]

Ok, Friday it is.

[chris-mr2]

System seemed to work well on way back, had to turn gain cw and thres ccw to stop failsafe light illuminating upon activation.

Thanks again, let me know what you find out about my board

[Richard L]

Instead of thres ccw, you can ccw WL. Makes sense?

[Richard L]

Will be working on the original board tomorrow. Very strange.

[chris-mr2]

WL is already fully CCW, I well spend some time setting trims up properly this weekend

[Richard L]

There are a few updates since the HFS3 V1.

One in particular is the lower WL span limit. The latest HFS3v2-v3 failsafe has been extended so you can set the WL much lower. It is due to some users wanted to inject from quite early and using very large fuel injector in case they run E85.

So you may need pay us another visit or send the gauge to us so we can update the WL adjustment span.

[Richard L]

I was looking at the wrong place yesterday during your visit. Found the culprit at last. Two copper tracks were burnt, possibly by an accidental short circuit on circuit board during the recent installation on the second car. It wasn't caused by incorrect wiring. A small puff of smoke should be seen during the incident.

Luckily it only affected the failsafe as the main injection circuit is independent to the failsafe section.

See red arrows.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H3-forum/MR2-1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H3-forum/MR2-2.jpg

[chris-mr2]

Blimey, well done how did you notice that?
Do you think i would benefit from buying a version 2 gauge to match the controller? Are there enough difference's in the gauges?

[Richard L]

It was staring at me all the time, mind was in the wrong place. The top broken track (bottom picture) was covered up by a large resistor).

You don't need to change the gauge, just send it back to me, the will lower the WL. I think you should cut x1 and solder link x1.5. You might be OK with the current WL.

Let me know if if improve the system with x1.5 linked.

[chris-mr2]

Hi richard
I will send gauge to you for update if thats ok, would of done it sooner but lost my phone with all my forum login details and email

[Richard L]

Not a problem sending. I will be away for the entire next week.

[chris-mr2]

Hi Richard
I soldered the 1.5 link to see if it helped, having other issues now, what would cause this symptom-
"S" light turns off
Blue w-injection light turns off
And yellow failsafe light illuminates

Any thoughts would be appreciated

[Richard L]

"S" light is associated with the yellow flow sensor harness. Check it first.
"Blue" water injection light monitors the 12V power into the gauge - check harness and plug.

If the "S" cable is faulty, the failsafe will come on as it does not see flow.

[chris-mr2]

Ok I thought it might be loose wiring myself so I'll check them all
With 1.5 linked bars show much earlier on gauge (5 or 6) but as boost rises bars drop down to 1 or 2??

[Richard L]

Check the inline filter if you have abnormal flow.
Put a jumper link on "FDC" and tell me if the fuel duty cycle ramps up linearly.

[chris-mr2]

Hi Richard
Sorted the light issues, my plugs were all covered in dust and not getting a proper connection.

With jumper in FDC the gauge filled up so turned the gain down slightly to show 7 or 8 bars

With 1.5 linked now I was able to turn threshold back to 12 o'clock and trim WL WH closer to each other without failsafe activating at start of spray

System is now working perfectly in all conditons

Many thanks for your help