Failsafe with HKS EVC 6

[P997.tt]

Hi all ...

I want to know how exactly to wire the failsafe of the hfs3 to work with an ebc using a stepper motor for boost control ( evc 6 in my case) ... With external WGs

The manual calls for the use of a 3 way MAC valve, but stops short of explaining exactly how ...

Do you set it (MAC valve) to divert the boost referance hose going into the "0" port?
Or set it to disturb (block) the actuator signal hose to the waste-gates "port 1"

My aim is to go down to spring boost upon failsafe activation ...

Many thanks in advance

[Richard L]

What car is it?

[P997.tt]

Hi Richard ...

This is for a 997tt with gtx turboes .. Ext wg setup

[Richard L]

Is this a 997.1 or 997.2?

[P997.tt]

Richard,

Its a 997.1tt ... Garret turboes and tial wg/bov

[Richard L]

I made this drawing up, I think it should work.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/997TT/H3-997.1TT-HKS.gif

[P997.tt]

Nice illustration Richard, but I think you got the vacuum hoses hooked wrong ...

The boost referance hoses from the compressor should go into the middle "1" port, and gives feed to the lower port of the wg before going into the port. If I set the MAC before the Tee supplying boost referance to the wg it will cause un uncontrolled boost event ( WG will not see pressure and never open)

The control port on the evc 6 is the left "0" port, and it connects to both wastegates too ( Top or control port).

I will attach a diagram of the basic setup Im using ...

[P997.tt]

And another drawing showing a single turbo setup, its basically the same but with 2 of everything.

Basically to acheive my target "Failsafe" option, The top port on the external wg has to be vented to air, then the spring will be the sole boost regulator ... Just not sure how to acheive that with the mac valve,

Option A: on the boost referance hose (port 1 -middle) as you showed in the illistration, but definately after the tee going to the wg (Botttom), doing that will give the ebc no referance. ( not sure if it will work)

Option B: on the control vacuume hose (port 0- Left), this way I'm thinking to connect as follows:
Com - wg top port
NO - port 0 on stepper motor
NC - vent ( so when open its spring alone holding boost )

Let me know your thoughts about this Richard ...

[Richard L]

The aquamist failsafe relay contact is "closed" when flow is normal. So the MAC valve is "energised" during a normal cruise and on boost conditions. Ie, port 1 &2 is connected. Diverting the boost into the HKS capsule, allowing it to control boost.

As soon as flow problem is detected, the relay contact goes "open circuit" and de-energises the MAC valve. Now the port 2 & 3 is connected. Directing the boost into the upper part of wastegate actuator resulting in dropping boost.

I will looking into this closely tomorrow. It is getting quite late here.

[P997.tt]

The aquamist failsafe relay contact is "closed" when flow is normal. So the MAC valve is "energised" during a normal cruise and on boost conditions. Ie, port 1 &2 is connected. Diverting the boost into the HKS capsule, allowing it to control boost.

As soon as flow problem is detected, the relay contact goes "open circuit" and de-energises the MAC valve. Now the port 2 & 3 is connected. Directing the boost into the upper part of wastegate actuator resulting in dropping boost.

I will looking into this closely tomorrow. It is getting quite late here.


Yes Richard!! That will definitely work ....

Thank you for the quick replies and the nice diagram ...

Cheers

[Richard L]

I can never be 100% until it is tested. Please update.

[P997.tt]

Hello Richard ...

Ive installed e hfs3 on the car now, i still have the stock turbo setup and want to test that the system works on this setup first, and I have run into a couple of problems:

1- water level light on the gauge is always on, level sensor is correctly installed and all wiring is in order .... could it be a faulty sensor? I cannot begin to purge the system as it wont start the pump even with the sys jumpers.


2- The green idc led is not coming on. I tripple checked the idc connection on the ecu end. The amber thresh led comes on when I blip the throttle, green led never came on. When testing wi th the idc jumper on the circuit board the s+b lights on the gauge do flicker with throttle blipping.
So do I have a faulty green led on the circuit board too?


Any help is apprecited ...

[P997.tt]

Ive been troubleshooting with Jeff and learned a few things

1- the green led is definitly not working. Hooked the green wire from the ecu harness to ground and only the amber and red lights came on

2- pump works no problem, hooked direct to battery and runs

Wiring and circuit board seems fine but the water level light would not go away even with the sensor disconnected!!

What else would trigger that light?

Check this short video of the gauge

http://youtu.be/jPOcxSPufNE

[Richard L]

Please give me the following answers:

1. Which version is the HFS3?
2. serial number.
3. What wiring diagram are you using?
4. Is this a new install
5. Is the water level sensor installed in the correct orientation? Does the lever points upwards 45 degrees when tank is full?

[P997.tt]

Please give me the following answers:

1. Which version is the HFS3?
2. serial number.
3. What wiring diagram are you using?
4. Is this a new install
5. Is the water level sensor installed in the correct orientation? Does the lever points upwards 45 degrees when tank is full?

Hi Richard,

1- V3
2- sn: 102169
3- view attachment
4- yes this is a new install
5- yes it is, while on the matter, the reccomended 22-23mm hole in the manual will not work and the rubber gromet will pull through, a 16-17mm hole will allow the gromet to compress properly into an oring to seal.

[P997.tt]

Took a closer look at the circuit board, and the plastic base of the dfs jumper is partially broken. Could this cause the issue?

I have not tested the system on the road yet btw.

[P997.tt]

..........

[Richard L]

Ive been troubleshooting with Jeff and learned a few things

1- the green led is definitly not working. Hooked the green wire from the ecu harness to ground and only the amber and red lights came on

2- pump works no problem, hooked direct to battery and runs

Wiring and circuit board seems fine but the water level light would not go away even with the sensor disconnected!!
Thanks for the answers... very useful.

What else would trigger that light?

Check this short video of the gauge

http://youtu.be/jPOcxSPufNE


Let's deal with the tank level led.
(Let me have the results)

1. Unplug the sensor in the trunk.... is the led still on?
2. Still unplugged, now plug the blue harness from the controller.... result?

Await your reply.

[P997.tt]

I have tried that already while troubleshooting with jeff, no change . The water level light stayed on and the green led on the controller never came on ..

[P997.tt]

I just tried this Richard, I plugged in only the essentials .. Gauge, power and ecu, only with these 3 the gauge would come on ... White background is on with the yellow water level led, no other led is on, only the white background lettering ... Adding the blue plug with or without the sensor makes no change ... S led comes on with the wfs plug, ans the B with throttle ..

Have not yet tried it on the road, I stopped when I could not jump the pump manually from the box.

In the manual it says if the DFS jumper is linked this light will stay on as reminder, since the base is broken could that cause some sort of link between the poles?

What else would trigger this light so early?

Suggestions?

[Richard L]

I am still on the first issue of the yellow led.

So, when you pulled the blue harness, the yellow led still on?

[P997.tt]

I am still on the first issue of the yellow led.

So, when you pulled the blue harness, the yellow led still on?


Yes Richard ...

Actually no matter what harness you plug or unplug that light never goes off .. And I think if the system starts with it on it will never spray ...

[Richard L]

I just tried this Richard, I plugged in only the essentials .. Gauge, power and ecu, only with these 3 the gauge would come on ... White background is on with the yellow water level led, no other led is on, only the white background lettering ... Adding the blue plug with or without the sensor makes no change ... S led comes on with the wfs plug, ans the B with throttle ..

Have not yet tried it on the road, I stopped when I could not jump the pump manually from the box.

In the manual it says if the DFS jumper is linked this light will stay on as reminder, since the base is broken could that cause some sort of link between the poles?

What else would trigger this light so early?

Suggestions?


Please, please one thing at a time...

Just to recap:
Gauge ...... plugged in
Molex power ...... plugged in
ECU harness ....... plugged in


With the above, gauge back light comes on, and the yellow led also comes on.

Is this correct?

[Richard L]

The plastic base on the PRK has nothing to do with the issue.

[P997.tt]

Please, please one thing at a time...

Just to recap:
Gauge ...... plugged in
Molex power ...... plugged in
ECU harness ....... plugged in


With the above, gauge back light comes on, and the yellow led also comes on.

Is this correct?

Yes ..........

[Richard L]

OK, thank you.

This cannot happen unless there are some damaged components. Can you take a hi-resolution picture of the underside of the circuit board. I like to see if there are signes of damage.

BTW, do you have a digital multimeter?

[P997.tt]

Yes I do have a multimeter ..

Give me a minute to get the controller pics

[Richard L]

Great, the multimeter will help a lot.

There are 30 test points on the circuit board. All voltages. The ground (black probe) is at the bottom left of the 2nd row of test points. Let me know if you have identified this "ground" point.

[P997.tt]

Here is the picture

[P997.tt]

Great, the multimeter will help a lot.

There are 30 test points on the circuit board. All voltages. The ground (black probe) is at the bottom left of the 2nd row of test points. Let me know if you have identified this "ground" point.


Yeah, clear in the picture ...

So black to ground and red to test point ... Which points you want me to test? All 30?

[Richard L]

Gauge button on always.

Read the following, ignition off:
TP4, TP5, TP7, TP8, TP10, TP11, TP15, TP16, TP17, TP18, TP20, TP23, TP30

Read the following, ignition on, pre-crank:
TP4, TP5, TP7, TP8, TP10, TP11, TP15, TP16, TP17, TP18, TP20, TP23, TP30 (same as above)

Read the following, engine running:
TP4, TP5, TP7, TP8, TP10, TP11, TP15, TP16, TP17, TP18, TP20, TP23, TP30 (same as above)

[Richard L]

Here is the picture

Th One more picture of the whole board. The left side is missing.

[P997.tt]

Ok Richard thanks for your support, will test them in the next couple days and update this thread ...

[Richard L]

OK. I look forward to the readings.

Can you take a hi-res, close up picture of the plugs of both gauge cable. Long and short. Make sure they are in focus.

[P997.tt]

Hi Richard, results are in, let me know what you think

[P997.tt]

Original cable end

[P997.tt]

Extended, other end is a mirror just like the original, both behave the same ..

[Richard L]

One thing stood out on the tests, the red wire of the molex is not correct, Check this wire. Should be A8 of the DME.

[P997.tt]

One thing stood out on the tests, the red wire of the molex is not correct, Check this wire. Should be A8 of the DME.

It is connected to A8, in fact it is twisted with the other red wire from the ECU harness and tapped into A8 at the same exact point

I will check and adjust that wire, which test point to check after and what should the reading be?

[P997.tt]

One thing stood out on the tests, the red wire of the molex is not correct, Check this wire. Should be A8 of the DME.

I went back to the car rechecked the red wire from the molex connector and it is definitly in contact with the A8 pin wire ... I even untwisted it from the other red wire from the ecu harness and gave each wire its dedicated contact space on A8's wires ......

Still, the water level light remains, but I noticed this:


When the A connector of the car's ecu is disconnected the water level light goes away, but the gauge background and S led is still working, as soon as I plug in the A connector /harness the light comes back on again ...

[P997.tt]

Update:

Found a cut in the path of the molex red, repaired and reassured connection to A8 ...

Water level light is Finally OFF!!!!!!! Happy day!

Confirmed by jumping the pump with the sys link ...

Niw the green led still didn't come one, and the thres amber is not coming on now too ... I tried the test idc jumper and the S led does flicker with throttle ..

[Richard L]

first step is a success!

now the iDC signal.

I am afraid you have to retest all the test points again. This time, with the engine running.

[Richard L]

Can you post a hi-res picture of the top side of the controller.

[P997.tt]

Post light fix diagnostic readout, Engine running idle:

[P997.tt]

Hi Richard, awaiting your input on the readings above, here is the picture you requested:

[P997.tt]

Took the car for a spin and its not acting right.

With the system of I get no boost at all, with it on only about 3-4psi and some flow bars before both yellow led's come on ... Think its in failsafe mode ... Is this due to the idc issue too?

For the time being, disable the failsafe by linking the "DFS" with "PRK"

[Richard L]

Thanks for the update, it appears the test points are is now reading correctly. The controller is OK on all the basic functions.

Moving onto the next diagnostic work:

A few question first to help me:
1. When you do the SYS test, does the red and yellow led comes on on the controller.
2. SYS test: Did the system spray?
3. SYS test: Did the gauge show flow?

Next test for the green led:
4. Unplug the red and blue harness to stop the pump and FAV from activating.
5. Unplug the green harness.
6. Ground the green wire of the ECU harness (grey) and tell me if you all the leds come on on the controller.

Await your reply.

[Richard L]

Took the car for a spin and its not acting right.

With the system of I get no boost at all, with it on only about 3-4psi and some flow bars before both yellow led's come on ... Think its in failsafe mode ... Is this due to the idc issue too?

For the time being, disable the failsafe by linking the "DFS" with "PRK"

Link the "DSF" with "PRK" to disable the failsafe for the time being.

[P997.tt]

Thanks for the update, it appears the test points are is now reading correctly. The controller is OK on all the basic functions.

Moving onto the next diagnostic work:

A few question first to help me:
1. When you do the SYS test, does the red and yellow led comes on on the controller.
2. SYS test: Did the system spray?
3. SYS test: Did the gauge show flow?

Next test for the green led:
4. Unplug the red and blue harness to stop the pump and FAV from activating.
5. Unplug the green harness.
6. Ground the green wire of the ECU harness (grey) and tell me if you all the leds come on on the controller.

Await your reply.

I went back in and disconnected the failsafe manually for now, if all goes well will deal with that, will test it later tonight if it boosts again ..

Answers:
1-yes both amber and red came on with the sys test
2- i disconnected the fav to purge the line and it did deliver to that end didnt test the jet end though, but the road test earlier it did show a few bars before fs kicked in ..

I did the ground test before when the system was malfunctioning and the green light sid not come on ...

Will try again and update

[P997.tt]

Richard,

Same result, when I grounded the green wire the amber and red lights came on, no green ..

What is causing the failsafe to kick in? System is receiving the idc signal clear from the voltage readings. Could it be triggered by an unsecured fav In the engine bay?

[Richard L]

Until the system failsafe is set up, it will keep dropping the boost. We are no where near this stage. Need to sort out the green led and reading the IDC.

It appeared the green led failed. Lets move no, as it is not to important.

Let's set up the system:
(engine off, key on pre-crank position)

1. remove the two jets from the engine and let them spray into the air
2. SYS the system
3. Set the SC on the gauge until it to reads 6 bars
4. Set the WL to 10am
5. Set the WH to 2pm
6. Set the THRES to 10am on the controller.
7. Reinstate the jets
8. Remove DFS link back to PRK

Take the car for a test drive,

9. Hoe many bars are showing at WOT?
10. Does the failsafe trip and drop boost?

That is it for now. Await your results

[P997.tt]

Took her for a spin after removing the fs wires ... This is how it behaves ..
http://youtu.be/QBfpSmijsSU

Will make your changes and report back

[Richard L]

Looks pretty normal to me.

[Richard L]

Can you check the soldering of the two components, it is to do with the green led.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/green led.jpg

[P997.tt]

I set the gauge dials as per my tuners's specs, all is ok now ... Just 1 Q, if I rewire the failsafe and choose to unlink the dhb it will not put the system under failsafe If I turn the gauge off, am I correct?

Dont really care about the green led, as long as the system runs fault free, that light will live its life buried behind a speaker ...

Would like to thank you for the great support you gave me ....


http://youtu.be/ePm6ILIEqLU

[Richard L]

Yes, removing the DHB will allow you to retain full boost when you switch the system off. But I though you have already removed the failsafe wiring.

The settings I mentioned is just a starting point. If you rely on the meth tune, you need narrow the window by trimming the WL and WH. It is all in the user manual.

Have fun.

[naviuk]

The aquamist failsafe relay contact is "closed" when flow is normal. So the MAC valve is "energised" during a normal cruise and on boost conditions. Ie, port 1 &2 is connected. Diverting the boost into the HKS capsule, allowing it to control boost.

As soon as flow problem is detected, the relay contact goes "open circuit" and de-energises the MAC valve. Now the port 2 & 3 is connected. Directing the boost into the upper part of wastegate actuator resulting in dropping boost.

I will looking into this closely tomorrow. It is getting quite late here.

Hey Richard, I'm reviving this from the Dead :)

I'm now in the final stages of my setup (Finally) and i want to add the failsafe into the setup, I rely on the water injection to work in order to achieve the timing i have set, so in the event it stops working i need to make sure boost drops quick.

Reading through the diagram, i'm alittle confused, With the EVC6 and an external wastegate

O = Direct to Top port on EWG
I = Direct to Bottom port on EWG with "T" to Turbo/boost pipe

With the instructions earlier on, you saying when there is an issue the MAC valve will turn off and air will pass from the Turbo to "O" which goes to the TOP port on the EWG, but if pressure is applied from the TOP this will shut the gate cause boost to be uncontrollable. in the event of a failure, Ideally Zero air must flow to the top port and all must go to the bottom port force the gate to open at spring pressure.

Possibly i miss-read the diagram or instructions?

Would it be possible to do a diagram from this illustration (Attached) ?

I'm assuming you still keep a similar plumbing configuration but add the Mac valve in to bypass pressure in the event of an issue on the Aquamist unit.

Thanks!

[Richard L]

Try this one....ignore the other connection, concentrate on the red, brown and white wires to the MAC valve.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/997TT/H3-997.1TT-HKS.gif

[naviuk]

Hey Richard

Just a question, for the HKS, how difficult would it be to swap the grounding option for the White wire?

So my theory is rather run the evc ground from the aquamist, in a failsafe it cuts ground thus turning the EVC off. this would force the car to run spring pressure.

Is this an option if i sent you my unit?

Thanks!

[Richard L]

Brown, white and black are the contacts of the failsafe relay.

White = common
black = normally closed
brown = normally opened

Under the normal operating environment, aquamist keeps the failsafe energised until some goes wrong. This means brown and white are connected.

[qeadzc010203]

Oh dear! :s

[naviuk]

Thanks,

So then my theory will work, run the EVC ground to the white wire, in normal operation it is grounded, when something goes wrong it is disconnected, thus turning the EVC off.

I'll wire this up as soon as i get a gap and let you know. this will be alot easier then using a mac valve in conjunction with the stepper.

Thanks