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Old 23-06-2010, 08:33 PM
SIVIirnoff SIVIirnoff is offline
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Question Water Vs. Meth

I have a quick question that I want to answer before I jump into the world of alcohol injection. I am trying to figure out the best balance between getting the benefits of alcohol injection and reducing the inconvenience of trying to find/store/handle methanol. My reason for getting this setup would be to reduce detonation to protect my engine... performance gains is just a bonus.

-What kind of detonation resistance would I see with using only water?
-Would the benefits of using only water outweigh the cost and hassle of the water injection kit?
-What, if any, performance gains could I expect with using only water?

-With regards to meth, how much of a hassle is it to find/store/handle? any suggestions in this department?

This setup will be on a 2011 Subaru STi which experience has shown us that these engines are very susceptible to detonation and when detonation is present in these engines, bad things happen.

Last edited by SIVIirnoff; 23-06-2010 at 08:35 PM.
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  #2  
Old 24-06-2010, 03:15 AM
Howerton Engineering Howerton Engineering is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

This question is sometimes a loaded one as there are so many variables you can make nearly anything work. I'll offer up my experience and you decide what it's worth.

100% water is good for preventing pre-ignition. It cools the combustion chamber and physical parts helping to eliminate hot spots. It also absorbs some of the peak heat during combustion helping cool everything as well.
Add too much water and you will blow out the flame front causing mis-fires. My basic description is, using 100% water you need a lot of "heat" By heat I mean boost and or compression. Using water on a low compression and moderate boost motor can be tricky.

100% methanol is good for adding real octane numbers and cooling the inlet track. Methanol will evaporate to a lower temperature int eh inlet track than water lowering the effective IAT. (We can argue about wet vs dry bulb temps but that's another subject). Methanol burns cooler and slower than gasoline helping cool the EGT's as well. Many tuners will find it's easier to make quick power on straight methanol, as the greater BTU release, increased octane, lower IAT and EGT all lead to power increases.

Some folks swear by straight water and some straight methanol. I've found it's pretty application specific.

AS for getting and mixing. Many people run 50/50 for the combined attributes of both liquids, and relative ease of procurement. 50/50 can be bought from some of the methanol suppliers. Other folks will research the best windshield wiper fluid they can find in their area. It can be found in 20-50% methanol concentrations. Try to find some with as little dye, and no detergents as possible. I know in CA finding it without detergents is hard.

Remember, if you get tuned for say 30% meth, you can generally go to higher concentrations later without damage, but if you are tuned for 50/50 and run straight water, you will run lean.

Hopefully this helps. I try not to ramble on this stuff but there is a lot of info to digest.
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Old 24-06-2010, 10:39 AM
SIVIirnoff SIVIirnoff is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

Thank you for the info.

So if I get tuned for straight water and later decide I want to go 50/50, would I most likely run into problems? Would I need a second tune? I assume yes.

I am currently deployed to the middle east but will have to do some research when I get back home to see how difficult it would be to get my hands on methanol in my area.
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Old 24-06-2010, 08:40 PM
keithmac keithmac is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

It depends on how much you inject, if you are set up to inject 15% water by fuel then going to 50/50 will make it a little richer (slightly lower AFR`s).

I personally found the best gain running straight methanol (and lots of it!) but this can be problematic with tuning and refilling the meth tank.

Another option is to mix 20% methanol in the fuel tank, but you will need to re-tune for this (add aprox 15% more fuel via the maps), I`m trying this out at the moment.
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  #5  
Old 25-06-2010, 12:28 PM
RICE RACING RICE RACING is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIVIirnoff View Post
I have a quick question that I want to answer before I jump into the world of alcohol injection. I am trying to figure out the best balance between getting the benefits of alcohol injection and reducing the inconvenience of trying to find/store/handle methanol. My reason for getting this setup would be to reduce detonation to protect my engine... performance gains is just a bonus.

-What kind of detonation resistance would I see with using only water?
-Would the benefits of using only water outweigh the cost and hassle of the water injection kit?
-What, if any, performance gains could I expect with using only water?

-With regards to meth, how much of a hassle is it to find/store/handle? any suggestions in this department?

This setup will be on a 2011 Subaru STi which experience has shown us that these engines are very susceptible to detonation and when detonation is present in these engines, bad things happen.
Its very well documented in older papers listed freely on this site and also on mine under the WI section. I am in the midst of writing my own paper on this and reworking it for a more layman audience and in modern understandable units of measure.

In very quick summary though

YES to all your questions, water is worth it, and it will cure all detonation problems while also giving you more power with less stress on the engine than ANY fuel you care to imagine.

You need to for normal air temperatures between 70 to 40 deg C run anything from 20% to 60% water to base fuel by mass to allow you to have very large power gains *through increased boost pressure in the main* (along with total elimination of any engine knock). These ratio's of water to base fuel are for big results, some people use lower ratio's like 10% or 15% by mass to achieve smaller gains in power, in some set ups that may be all you need to cover the amount of boost you want to run or have a very big knock safety margin for all conditions.

Water injection is the single best thing you can do to any engine, especially when it is running high air inlet temperature (+40deg C) when artificially pressurized. The maximum amount of methanol to mix with water is 50% by mass, any more than this makes the mixture more knock prone. The mixing of methanol in with water can allow ignition limited set up or boost fixed set ups to have a low loss in power with very high increase in knock resistance. The more water you can run is always better, but each set up is slightly different as are peoples situations too, so its a case by case thing.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2010, 12:26 PM
stevebez stevebez is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

Anyone recommend a suitable windscreen washer fluid that has approx 20% meth ratio and no undesired substances (I believe some washer fluids contain additive which can be corrosive).

Thanks!
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Howerton Engineering Howerton Engineering is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

The available fluids depend upon your region. Your best bet is to visit a few auto parts stores/suppliers and see what's readily available. Then you can go to the manufacturers website and look up the ingredient/MSDS.
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  #8  
Old 22-07-2010, 09:40 AM
stevebez stevebez is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

We have a water softner in our house is there any issue in running soft (higher sodium ion content) v hard water (higher calcium ion content) - or is distilled / battery water preferred?

I would imagine softened water may be better as you would avoid possible calcium buildup in running water only?
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  #9  
Old 22-07-2010, 10:13 AM
stevebez stevebez is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

Also to be clear methanol and methylated spirits are very different or are we talking roughly the same thing here? And can methylated spirits be used in diluted form at all?

Please excuse my ignorance!
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  #10  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:09 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Water Vs. Meth

more alcohol information:


Methanol:
Also known as Methyl alcohol, carbinol, colonial spirit, columbian spirit,
methylol, methyl hydrate, wood alcohol, wood naphtha, wood spirit, methyl
hydroxide, pyroxylic spirit,
Physical data:
Appearance: colourless liquid with a characteristic odour
Melting point: -98 C
Boiling point: 64.7 C
Vapour density: 1.1
Vapour pressure: 97.7 mm at 20 C
Specific gravity: 0.791
Flash point: 11 C
Explosion limits: 6% - 36 %
Autoignition temperature: 464 C
Toxicology:
Toxic by inhalation, ingestion or skin absorption. May be a reproductive
hazard. Ingestion may be fatal. Risk of very serious, irreversible damage if
swallowed. Exposure may cause eye, kidney, heart and liver damage. Irritant.
Narcotic. UK exposure limits: long-term 200 ppm, short term 250 ppm.
Stability:
Stable. May react violently with acids, acid chlorides, acid anhydrides,
oxidizing agents, reducing agents and alkali metals. Protect from moisture.
Highly flammable
Personal protection:
Safety glasses. Effective ventilation.

Denatured alcohol contains:
82% Ethanol
9% Isopropanol
2% Methanol
1% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone


Rubbing Alcohol:
The systematic name for isopropyl alcohol is propan-2-ol
The structure is CH3-CH(OH)-CH3
It is called rubbing alcohol becuase it is definitely not for
drinking! Propan-2-ol is commonly used in disinfectant swabs used
to clean skin before an injection, and many people recognise it from
this.


Methylated spirit:
is an even nastier mixture of ethanol, methanol,
blue dye and pyridine (ugh).
"Industrial methylated spirit" (IMS) is 90% ethanol, 5% methanol, 5%
water.
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